terri_testing ([info]terri_testing) wrote,
@ 2008-06-25 20:17:00
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Entry tags:abuse, james/lily, potter's marriage

Abusive!James/ Lily, Potter Marriage, Snape; Liberacorpus
A/N: None of the characters is mine, though this interpretation of them certainly is. Canon-compliant in terms of facts: if anybody sees anything I overlooked please, PLEASE tell me so I can change it. I’m just borrowing JKR’s setting to tell a story about a relationship that Smallpotato (marianros) asked for…. (It’s her fault, hers, hers. This didn’t come from my perverted imagination at all. Really not.)

Warnings: Anyone who LIKES the Marauders—or who is squeamish about domestic abuse—shouldn’t read this.

Ships: Abusive!James/Lily, Severus/Lily

Liberacorpus!



Liberacorpus

June 1981

“Levicorpus doesn’t really hurt,” Severus had told her.

It must be true. James would never use anything that really hurt her. He was so careful that way, no matter how angry she had made him.

Lily hadn’t meant to slop their beers when she Depulsoed them from the kitchen. But carelessness was inexcusable; she knew James’s standards.

It was just so… embarrassing. It would be nothing if James let her wear jeans. But he liked her to dress “like a proper witch”, which meant nothing but underwear under her robes. Thank Merlin his family had been modern enough to wear underwear! At least she had stopped breastfeeding and was back to a normal bra.

She didn’t struggle or try to hold up her robes. She had been trained that it would just get worse if she did. She dangled passively, waiting for James to decide she’d been punished enough.

In a way, she was glad her robes covered her face; that meant she didn’t have to see theirs.

If only he hadn’t punished her right in front of Wormtail.

Sure enough, Wormy started giggling. “Nice legs, James. I always figured you must have done well for yourself in that department. You always were a leg man.”

Lily hated the way Wormtail giggled; she hated the thought that he was staring at her body. She could feel her bare flesh prickling with mortification.

Prongs laughed. “Oh, Evans has her points. But she needs to be more careful with her wand. Now, my wand she handles well enough. Right, Evans?”

Lily hung silently. Prongs raised his voice a little. “That was a question, Evans. You like handling my wand, don’t you? Tell Wormy!”

“Yes, James,” she answered woodenly.

“Good girl,” he replied, his voice deeper. Lily spilled to the ground in a tangle of robes, and he told her, “Now clean up this mess, Lily. I want to drink the beer, not wear it.”

“Yes, James,” she answered. “Um—my wand is in the kitchen.”

“Well, get it then,” he said. “And straighten yourself up a little. The windswept look is my style, not yours.” He grinned at her; she straightened in relief. It was over, then, for now, as long as she didn’t do anything else wrong.

*

October 1975

Severus had discovered the Room of Requirement their second year; he and Lily had used it for private meetings ever since. Usually they went over their Potions homework. Their version of the Room varied a little from visit to visit, but it always included an overstuffed bookcase, a couple of overstuffed, squashy chairs that looked suspiciously like the ones in the Evans sitting room, a well-illuminated table for writing at, and a tea service with ginger nuts among other goodies. In winter there was a cozy fireplace, in warm weather an open window, though it looked onto no view on the Hogwarts grounds. Sometimes there was a potions lab, and Severus spent their time experimenting. Usually they worked together, but occasionally they just read. Silently, companionably, unlike anything Lily found among her Gryffindor friends.

Sometimes they fought.

At the beginning of this year a sofa had appeared, though Lily couldn’t imagine why it should be required. It was squashy like the chairs. Severus had shied like a startled horse the first time he saw it. He still refused to sit on it, establishing himself firmly instead in a squashy chair. Lily sometimes curled on the sofa to read, since it was comfortable. Once she had stretched and looked over to find Severus staring at her; he had hunched into his chair and turned red.

But they weren’t working on potions today, or reading. The ceiling was higher than usual.

“That’s it,” Severus urged her. “Your wand again, so. That’s right, you’ve got it. The incantation should be done nonverbally: it’s ‘Levicorpus’. And the counter is the same movement, but flicked upwards instead, and the incantation is ‘liberacorpus.’ Got that, Lily?” He grinned at her.

“But what does it do, Sev?”

“You’ll see in a minute, Lily. Just give me a sec to prepare.” He pointed his wand at himself and muttered a word or two. “Okay, give it a try.”

“Levicorpus!” she thought, brandishing her wand. There was a flash of light, and Severus was upside down in mid air before her. His charm must have been to keep his robes from obeying gravity; they looked like a statue’s robes, turned upside down like that. Lily giggled, and Sev’s grin widened. He crossed one leg casually over the other and pillowed his head in his hands. His hair, unlike his robes, was hanging down. His face looked very different with all its planes exposed and wrong side up to boot. But the half-secretive, half-smug expression that he wore when he pulled something off was the same as ever.

Lily giggled again. “Clever, Severus. But what’s the point?”

“The point is to put someone temporarily out of action without having to hurt them. Levicorpus doesn’t really hurt them, but being yanked off your feet without warning will disorient anyone. With any luck they might drop their wand, but even if they keep it they’ll have their robes in their face and tangling their arms. One of the situations where Muggle clothing would be more practical. I’ve finally got something those bastards won’t expect!”

Lily looked at Severus hanging calmly in the air. Her brow creased as she visualized an unprepared victim—flailing, frightened, robes over their head. Exposed if they didn’t wear Muggle gear under their robes like she did.

Lily said slowly, “It might not hurt exactly but… it’s cruel, Sev. It’s—humiliating.”

He gestured with his own wand and landed lightly beside her. “Oh, what’s a little humiliation, Lily? I need an edge with those bastards always after me. Something secret I can use.”

She chewed her lip. “I don’t know, Sev, it just seems… well, cruel, like I said. Besides, don’t expect to keep it a secret, not if you’re talking about using it on the Marauders. You know they’re good at figuring out hexes once they see them—”

He laughed. “Lily, you worry too much. That’s why it’s nonverbal! They won’t figure it out.”

*

June 1976

It had been a bit funny for half a second, remembering Sev’s smugness last fall. She had told him so! But then he had said—that, and all amusement fled.

How could Severus say that? To her?


Potter came up to her in the common room that afternoon, looking grave. “Look, I’m sorry I went too far—and even sorrier that I exposed you to insult. I guess we both already knew he was an ungrateful bastard, but I wouldn’t have expected even someone like him to say that to someone who was trying to help him. But that’s the Death Eaters for you—they all really think that way, even when they’re trying to hide it.”

Lily crossed her arms and looked away. Potter hesitated and then touched her arm quickly. His hand dropped when she looked at it glacially.

“I just hope you noticed, Evans, I didn’t do anything that could’ve really hurt Snivellus: just immobilized him and used a little bit of scourgify to clean his filthy mouth. Whereas he used a Dark spell on me—did you see how he gashed me? Took Dittany to stop the bleeding—you know what that means.”

Yes. Lily knew far better than Potter what that meant. Dittany was used in general healing, true, but most particularly in potions designed to counter curse damage.

She and Severus had been working on one just day before yesterday.

At least now she knew what he really was.

However much it hurt to know.

*

October 1977

“For almost two years now,” James said seriously. “No one but you.”

Lily burst out laughing. “Pull the other one, Potter!”

Around them in Madame Puddifoot’s, heads turned at her unrestrained laughter. Lily didn’t care, but she saw that Potter looked a little affronted. She wiped her eyes. “Oh, James. You went out with at least half my best friends last year! Now you tell me you’ve been … carrying a torch for me all this time? Oh, please!” She laughed again.

Potter turned a dull red and studied his cup. “I—you pulled me up so sharply when I asked you fifth year—and I was being a jerk, I deserved it… but… I was afraid to ask again. So I, I… asked out your friends instead of you. That way—at least I was being near you, in a way, if not with you.”

There was a silence at the little table while Lily blushed in turn. Then James added, “Besides, I thought… you were right, I was being an arrogant toerag. Someone like … you… is worth changing for, I thought. So I’ve been trying. That’s why I haven’t—you notice Sirius and I didn’t get any detentions last year. Not for hexing anyone, I mean; I think we still goofed off in class more than someone like you did. But I’ve been trying.”

The Head Girl looked at him, brows creased. “But I’ve heard… some people say you’ve just gotten better at not being caught.”

James gave her that cocky Quidditch-winner grin that everyone saw who saw no more. “C’mon, Lily, no one can TOTALLY escape being caught if they’re going around hexing people left and right.”

(Unless they had a rat with the Marauder's Map stationed in the walls as a lookout, and an invisibility cloak as backup. But she would never know that.)

He sobered suddenly. “Mind you—there’re some people, like old Snivellus—if they curse first, I’ll hex them back. I’m not a pacifist, Lily; I don’t say I won’t fight back. But when we graduate—there are people like that out there, I won’t lie down and take it. I’ll fight, Lily, where I have to. Against the Dark. And I think you will too. That’s one of the things I like about you—so many girls are just shallow, but you think about these things. I think we’re on the same side.”

She nodded mutely. The waitress replenished their tea, and the talk moved on, increasingly easily, to lighter topics. Lily was laughing again when they left.

Unfortunately Deirdre O’Connell, the worst of the sixth year gossips, had been sitting at the next table, listening avidly. By the time Lily made it back to the Gryffindor common room, four of her jilted-by-James’s friends had decided they weren’t speaking to her. Three never did again, which made the rest of seventh year uncomfortable, but it didn’t matter long-term, Lily decided.

When she accepted his ring she lost two more. Not that that mattered; Mary was still her friend. The others were just jealous.

*
June 1979

Lily had never seen James look like this. His eyes were sunken and red; she could tell by that he’d been crying, though no other signs were visible.

The dragon pox epidemic had hit worst the older generation of Purebloods.

“James,” she said. “James!” She could do nothing better than to hold him.

His mother and father both.

After a while came his whisper, muffled against her hair, “You’ll come with me to the funeral?”

She nodded against his shoulder. That didn’t seem enough; she kissed his collarbone and told him, “Of course!”

He sighed and pulled her closer. “Lily. You’re my only family now. Please. Please. Let’s do it as soon as possible. Lily, please, you’re my only family now!”

She murmured something meaningless, but when he showed up two days after the funeral with a (Muggle!) license, she Apparated with him and Sirius to a Muggle registry office and said the vows. How could she refuse him, when he was in such pain? And she meant to eventually anyway.

*
October 1979

Sirius’s punch was spiked with Euphoria Elixir. By the time Lily spotted it, she no longer cared. This wasn’t her and Severus’s improved version, either, she diagnosed giddily; Remus was tweaking Sirius’s aristocratic nose, and she was perilously close to tweaking James’s. Aristocratic too, she thought, he was a Pureblood for generations, not a middleclass Mudblood like her. She laughed and laughed.

James whirled her around in another dance and fed her more punch. She was thirsty after the dancing; it was nice of him to take care of her. He was so nice, her husband, so nice.

“Happy Halloween!”

Who had said that? Not that it mattered; Lily drank the toast.

They had just enough sense left not to try Apparating in their state. They spent the night, sensibly, in Sirius’s spare room. James had just enough sense left to put up privacy wards.

But they were both too giddy to think about Contraceptus.

Well, Lily thought she had said something, early on. But she was far too drunk and euphoric to cast the charm.

James wasn’t displeased; he’d been hoping for children early.

But Lily had a sinking feeling. It wasn’t quite the right time, it seemed to her, not with the war on.

*

January 1980

James was under so much more stress than she was. She had to make allowances.

For one thing, he was still active in the Order; he risked his life weekly or more often.

She was safe at home.

Not that Lily had had much choice: her fatigue, her nausea, and her… emotional instability, all made it seem better to drop out of active duty for now. Not that Alice Longbottom had, but as James had pointed out, Alice was a trained Auror and much older and more experienced. Lily didn’t really have that much to contribute in comparison: humiliating, but true. It was better for her to keep out of the way so no one was dragged down protecting her. James was right in that.

*

February 1980

“… since she’s stopped being active in the Order she seems a little down. I just thought maybe having some of her girlfriends…” Moony’s voice became inaudible as he moved away from the kitchen door; James murmured something indistinguishable in response.

Lily’s eyes stung suddenly with tears. Remus was always so thoughtful. But James was right, of course; it wasn’t really fair to anyone who wasn’t already committed to the struggle against You-Know-Who to endanger them by being seen to be too close. Marlene and Alice were very nice, but enough older that she couldn’t quite connect with them as she had her own friends. Plus they were too busy with Order business and their own family and friends.

She had been feeling down a lot lately, but that was mostly just the hormones of pregnancy. It was really a pity that being a witch was no help at all with that little problem.

She had hoped that their mutual pregnancies would draw her and Tuney closer again, but Tuney’s coldness had, if anything, increased. Sure, Sirius had been thoughtless at the wedding, but he had meant it as a joke. For Tuney and Vernon still to be holding a grudge, as James pointed out, showed how closed-minded they were.

Still, she missed her sister sometimes—and Mary and her other Hogwarts friends often. If only the threat of You-Know-Who was less pressing, she and James could have a more normal, a more open, life. But that wasn’t an option.

Sighing, Lily floated the tray of beers and cheese straws out to where her husband and his three friends waited. They greeted her arrival—or possibly the beers’—with cheers, and she forced herself to laugh with them in turn.

Just hormones.

*
March 1980

The four Marauders were relaxing at Sirius’s flat after the meeting. After the second beer, James loudly declared that he needed some crisps to go with. “Moony! Come with me! We’re on a Quest for Crisps.”

Remus shook his head sadly. “At midnight? You won’t find any stores open, mate.”

“I’ve got Muggle money, Moony, or we can hit a pub. We won’t return without ‘em! Where’s your
Gryffindor courage?”

Remus laughed. “All right, Prongs. We’ll find your crisps if it takes all night.”

But no sooner were they alone together in the night than James’s lightness left him. “This is hard to say, Moony, and I don’t want you to take it wrong. Sirius and I had been talking about … your mission… and Lily heard. She didn’t take it—well, the way I would have predicted. Well, she did, sort of—she said it made no difference to her. But—I know her too well, you see. I can tell she’s scared.”

Remus walked silently beside him, head bowed. After a while he looked up at his friend. “She’s afraid of me?”

“She’s ashamed to be—she tried not to show it. I’m not sure you could even tell, even as well as you know her. But I can tell—and Moony, she’s pregnant. It might be—it probably is—just one of those pregnant woman’s fancies. She knows it’s not rational; she said it herself, you’re still you. But she’s scared, Moony, and—she’s under so much stress already with the Order and You-Know-Who, I don’t want … anything added….”

Remus swallowed. He was extremely proud that his voice came out uninflected. “You’re thinking it’s better if I stay away from her, then.”

“Moony, probably once the baby’s here she’ll be more herself. She knows her reaction isn’t reasonable or fair. I hate to even ask—”

Remus interrupted. “You didn’t ask. I’m offering.” He stopped in the darkness. “I don’t think I’m in the mood for crisps, James. I think I’ll just head home.”

Prongs grabbed his arm. “You’re still one of my best mates, Moony. Lily’s being a little irrational, but I have to cater to her in her condition. We’re still friends; Lily won’t even try to interfere with that, with our seeing each other, getting together. Just not visiting the house, not until she comes around.”

Remus nodded stiffly and pulled his arm away. “Yeah James. Still friends. G’night.”

He Disapparated.

*

April 1980

Lily’s brow creased. “Is Remus still… away… on Order business? It seems so long since we’ve seen him…”

“Lily… I’m going to tell you something very confidential. You must keep this a secret. Promise me!”

She nodded solemnly, confused by his insistence. Didn’t he trust her?

James raked his hands through his hair and sighed. “Moony… is a werewolf. Sirius and Peter and I have known since third year, and it’s never made a difference. But… lately we’ve been getting a little worried. You-Know-Who has been, well, recruiting Dark creatures. We know Moony was approached, and of course he said no. But then—the Order asked him to start—hanging out with other werewolves, try to keep them from going over—spy on them, even. And since he’s started doing that—well, he’s gotten more distant with us. And we’re wondering—just a little—if he’s starting to feel… more comfortable… with his new pack than with us.”

Lily went white. “James. That’s a terrible thing to suggest about Remus. He was always the kindest one in your group, and the one who tried hardest to do the right thing. I can’t imagine he—but then I can’t imagine him as a werewolf, at all. He seems so gentle most of the time, softer than most of the Order.”

“We know, Lily, we know. And we hope it’s not true. If it’s happening at all, I don’t think it’s a choice he’s making. I think it might be a pull, like—being among his own kind, finally. And maybe we’re mistaken; maybe it’s just stress. Lily, don’t you say anything to him when you do see him. Sirius and I are trying not to treat him any different than ever. Don’t you treat him differently either.”

*

June 1980

Petunia sat stiffly beside her sister in the church, refusing to look at her. Her face was mostly buried in the missal; occasionally she looked blindly at the caskets.

At the graveside, Tuney started sobbing at the first shovelfull. Her husband put his arm around her awkwardly, uncomfortable with the public display. Petunia suddenly wheeled from Dursley’s arm’s shelter to confront the Potters. She shrieked, “You freaks! They never even saw their first grandson!”

Tuney’s preemie was still in hospital. Lily hadn’t seen him either.

Tuney advanced upon James, her face wild. “It’s your fault, you freak, you did it somehow, you knew they were getting worried about precious Lily! And it’s your fault, Lily, for marrying him! I said, I said back then, you were separated from normal people for our safety…!”

Tears streaked Tuney’s face, and her commonplace husband looked at the Potters with loathing as he gathered her in. “Ssh, Petunia, you’re making a scene—control yourself….” He stroked her dull hair as she relapsed into sobbing.

The other people at the graveside, their parents’ friends, were staring at the sisters.

James hugged Lily close—or as close as her swollen belly allowed— and shrugged at Tuney’s ranting. “She’s just hysterical. I don’t care what a Muggle says about me,” he said magnanimously.

Lily couldn’t blame Tuney really; it was because of Lily that the Death Eaters had even known of the Evans’ existence. When the coroner could find no cause for the simultaneous deaths, well, Petunia knew enough of magic to work it out.

To attack James like that, though; no, that was going too far. James had been trying to help, giving the Aurors her parents’ address; he had been trying to get protection for them. No one could have known that the Auror’s office had been infiltrated.

James had wondered aloud if Snape might have taken the Death Eaters there, but Lily hadn’t credited that. For one thing, there was the timing. For the other… though she knew Severus hated Muggles on principle, she couldn’t see him hurting her parents. His dad, now… if a Dark Mark had been found floating above Spinner’s End, she’d have believed it in a minute. But she couldn’t imagine Severus at his darkest attacking her mum, who’d fed him ginger nuts and milky tea. “Don’t your folks ever feed you, boy? Drink up, there’s plenty more!”

But... “we both already knew he was an ungrateful bastard.”

Maybe?

Somehow even just wondering made her feel even worse than she already did. She buried her face in James’s shoulder to escape.

She and James didn’t go to the cold collation after. James took her home instead.

*
October 1980

At first James had comforted her tenderly when he found her crying, but finally he started getting angry. “Aren’t I enough for you?” he asked. “My folks are dead too, but I’m not still crying.”

Of course he was enough, he was her husband! But she missed her parents, she even missed her sister—the old Tuney, not the bitter one.

But the old Tuney was as dead as their parents, and James and darling Harry were her only family now.

Lily sniffed and composed herself. James hated to see her cry without reason.

It’s not like James ever hurt her. He was careful. It’s just—sometimes she lost her sense of humor. Especially being so tired from being woken by the baby. James let her tend to Harry at night—well, that was fair; James was working for the Order. Even if the baby had the colic, and woke her six nights out of seven.

The first time he used Sev’s spell on her, she flailed and cried out, “James! What are you doing? Let me down!”

But he didn’t, and she had dropped her wand when her feet were jerked from under her. Her robes were tangled about her head; she fought to bunch them, to pull them away so she could see him. He stood laughing, his face upside down to hers but almost at the same level. “James! Let me down!”

“Not just yet, I don’t think.”

“James—anyone walking by the window could see me!”

“And what a view they’d get, eh, Lily?”

“James—” she tried to reach out to him, but he backed out of her reach, smiling.

Eventually she’d started crying. He let her down then, saying, “Lily. Lily! It was just a joke! This whole situation that we’re in, if we lose our sense of humor we’ll go nuts. We’ve got to keep our sense of fun, can’t you see that?”

He levitated her up to their bedroom, murmuring soothingly. She really wasn’t in the mood, but she agreed they needed to keep their sense of fun. And it soothed James; he was under so much stress, more than her.

He needed to let off steam, as her dad used to say.

Playing jokes was just the way he did it.

He never actually hurt her. He usually didn’t even leave marks.

*
December 1980

James had come back from the meeting with Dumbledore looking aghast. Lily had not believed him at first when he told her. Some prophecy had made He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named think that their baby—their Harry!—might someday be a threat to him, so he was targeting the Potters for extinction? That was impossible to imagine.

But they had gone into hiding, and things had gotten much worse.

No, not worse. She shouldn’t use that word. It wasn’t that bad. But James was more stressed; well, that was natural. Staying at home except for Order business, hardly seeing anyone—that was only an exaggeration of how it had been before, for her. For months now she’d seen no one but his friends. Well, and his mum’s old friend, that historian, who was so happy to help James tell her how old-family witches should behave.

For him it was different; he felt trapped. He needed to blow off steam, and she was the only outlet. It was natural that he should start pulling more jokes on her. It was just unfortunate that the stress… played hob with her sense of humor. And that she knew so little, when you came to it, about pureblood ways of doing things.

She could never be sorry James had chosen her, but sometimes she wondered if he might not have been happier with a pureblood girl who knew from birth all the things—not magic, her OWLs had been better than James’s, but wizarding world etiquette—that James had to teach her from scratch.

The day he’d found her in trousers and a blouse he had slashed them off her with a hex, leaving her naked in view of the front window. But he’d been careful not to cut her, however angry he had been.

He built a very pretty wand holder in the kitchen, decorated with willow leaves and lilies. A witch’s wand should be kept where she used it most, he told her. He didn’t like to see it anywhere else unless he gave permission. Three weeks of Expelliarmus and Rictumsempra until she was sobbing had taught her that.

Each day there seemed to be more to learn.

*
August 1981

Lily shrieked when Harry caromed into the end table, knocking the vase to the floor. It was the vase the Dursleys had sent the Christmas before the boys’ births—the last present Petunia had sent her. Lily burst into tears. Why had it been on the end table? She usually kept it on the mantle. If she were allowed to use her wand, she could Reparo it. But she wasn’t. Harry stopped zooming on his little broom to stare at his mum. His face puckered and he started to wail.

Prongs stormed in; he took in the situation in a glance. “Which do you value more, my son or your damn Muggle knickknacks?”

Wormtail followed into the room, giggling. Lily couldn’t help herself; she writhed in protest when she saw that Wormtail had his camera. “James—please—no—”

Levicorpus.

The camera flashed.

Prongs released her; she fell at his feet. She straightened her robes and scrubbed at her face as best she could without rising from the carpet without permission. James laughed, plucked the baby off the broom, and threw him to the ceiling, again and again. Eventually Harry chortled and James set him back on his broom. The baby promptly started zooming past his father’s legs and her face. James said teasingly, “That’s my boy! Now isn’t my Harry a proper Quidditch star?”

One fat hand grabbed for the cat, which yowled and leapt away. “A Seeker for sure,” James said grinning.

Lily laughed in relief that it was over again and realized that Wormtail was snapping another picture.

Prongs had her send both pictures to Padfoot with her thank-you note for the broom.

“He’ll enjoy them,” Prongs said.

*
October1981

Tomorrow she would cast the Fidelius with Wormtail as the Secret-Keeper. And then no one could visit them, ever, unless Wormtail let them in. Only Padfoot and Wormy himself, Prongs had told her.

To keep them safe.

Until He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named was dead, or defeated, or decided the Potters weren’t worth targeting. How many years would it take? She and baby Harry could die, trapped in this little world.

Not trapped. She shouldn’t think that way.

They were just trying to keep her safe.

But… years, maybe, seeing no one but Padfoot and Wormtail.

And Prongs, of course. And Prongs.




(35 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]mary_j_59
2008-06-26 04:31 am UTC (link)
Ohmygosh! The scary thing is that this fits in so well with the little we know from canon. It's all too believable. The strange thing is that, way back in the days between HBP and DH, when I had such a strong Aragorn vibe from Severus, I actually thought out a story in which Death Eaters attacked the Evans family and Snape rescued them - but Mrs. Evans died, anyway, of a hart attack.

I do still mourn the Aragorn resonances that Rowling simply failed to pick up. But the main thing is - it is so obvious that Petunia is living her life in fear. This woman isn't jealous; she's petrified. Rowling is extraordinarily tone deaf when it comes to emotions, IMHO.

Critics will say, "But Sev joined the Death Eaters! That automatically makes him worse than James, even if James was abusive." Well - does it? It seems to me this is one question you are asking. And you made me like Lily, and love Lupin, again. Really, Rowling did such violence to so many characters; it's good to read them rescued, as chilling as this is. (and I noticed Prongs never humiliated or bullied Lily in front of Remus. The divide and conquer strategy - ugh!)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Thanks for your comments!
[info]terri_testing
2008-06-26 02:25 pm UTC (link)
When we were talking on Snapedom about abusive!James I was quite unconvinced: it seemed a possible but not a probable version of events. But then I started writing the story (modeling this James on a real-life abuser of a friend of mine) and the more I wrote, the more it fit.

My friend's abuser did an absolutely brilliant job at driving wedges in existing minor fissures in my friend's relationships; he didn't start overtly abusing her until he'd isolated her from all her previous friends and relatives. Including myself: I had prided myself on thinking him a slimeball from the start--I was never taken in by him, ha!--but in retrospect I realized that was exactly what he wanted me to think of him, it was one of the wedges he used.

Regarding Petunia, I'm one of the slow ones. On my first readings of HP I was as unsympathetic to the Dursleys as Jo could have hoped. I did pick up on Petunia's fear, but read it as unimaginative-and-stupid-middle-class horror of anything the least different or unconventional, and was (obviously! I'm bright and a fantasy reader) totally unsympathetic to that. Duj, and you, and a few others had to beat me about the head repeatedly with the FACT that in canon Petunia's son is ATTACKED every time he comes in contact with magic users--and that this didn't surprise the Dursleys--before it finally sank in that Lily's sister might have had reason to fear magic and to try to suppress it in her nephew.

I think it's excessivelyperky who has a great scene where Sirius hassles Petunia at Lily's wedding and Severus (Lucius had tormented him by dragging him there) rescues her.

I think Petunia's initial reaction to Lily's magic was shown to be about what mine would have been: fascination, fear, and a desire to do it too! Her feelings really curdled when Lily betrayed her by reading her mail and publicly humiliated her about it. And Petunia may have thought that Lily and Severus had used magic to do so. (And, frankly, given that Severus seemed to consider Muggles as completely undeserving of emotional consideration and that Lily seemed insensitive to her sister's feelings, I would imagine that Lily and Severus DID play "jokes" on Petunia while they palled around on the holidays.)

I did think that Remus would not have stood by and watched James abuse Lily as he did with Severus. If nothing else, he would have validated Lily's perception that James's jokes were getting increasingly unfunny. Most probably, he would have palmed off the problem on someone else by mentioning it to her old friends or Order members. Once James realized that Remus might take Lily's side, he had to get rid of him....

But Sev joined the Death Eaters!

Remember in my fic TDAIMP, (chapter 9 I think) where Severus and Dumbledore are talking about how Severus is going to pull it all together, and Severus comments that one of his main strategies is going to be to keep rubbing the children's faces in what they'll be expected to do if they do join? His potion against self-deception, and his comments on deception....?

I've been wondering lately--what DID Severus, and Regulus, and even Lucius (who's capable of any amount of nastiness indirectly, but who loses the prophecy at the MoM because he can't bring himself to hurt kids) originally think they were getting into? I'm gonna bring it up on Snapedom.

According to HPL, the earliest named death known to be the fault of Death Eaters is... Regulus. Defecting. In 1979.

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[info]cardigrl
2008-06-27 06:40 pm UTC (link)
Critics will say, "But Sev joined the Death Eaters! That automatically makes him worse than James, even if James was abusive."

Yes, I have seen this argument multiple times. And it's often raised whenever a person criticizes any actions taken by any of the Gryffindors, whether Sirius, Remus, Harry, etc. The thing I don't get is this: why is it a competition to see who is the worst? I know very few people (Snape fan or not) who would claim Severus is perfect. But why does the fact that somebody else may not be perfect mean that the Gryffindors get a pass for their nasties?

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[info]bohemianspirit
2008-06-27 10:02 pm UTC (link)
Critics will say, "But Sev joined the Death Eaters! That automatically makes him worse than James, even if James was abusive."

I had a thought on this, which I posted as part of my reply to Smallpotato's post on IJ:

Anyway, one more thought about Severus: If he did, in fact, see James as no good for Lily--not just out of his own self-interest or jealousy, but because he saw James as potentially abusive, at least psychologically abusive--then in a twisted way it might have made sense to him to go on and become a Death Eater. Because to Severus, becoming a Death Eater meant the POWER to vanquish his enemies and be vulnerable no more, and so he might have reasoned that he would be in a position to protect Lily from James. Which would explain why he wasn't too worried about Voldy killing off James--he'd probably see it (through an admittedly immature, young man's reasoning) as the best thing that could happen for Lily. Of course that would make it all the more ironic and tragic that his becoming a Death Eater ultimately led to Lily's death: the very thing he did to "save" her ended up killing her.


Even if he didn't see James as a potential abuser--how the bloody hell he could NOT, given his experience with James, would require a hell of a lot of explanation--I think this basically sums up Sev's motivation for joining the DE's. Stupid, flawed, short-sighted, but not Evil.

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[info]mary_j_59
2008-06-27 11:34 pm UTC (link)
Yes. There is, as Swythyv says, a semi-coherent story running deep under the incoherent (and somewhat pernicious) mess that is Rowling's canon. And, in that relatively coherent and moral story, James is, at the very least, a potential abuser. And Severus is a hero (though he certainly makes some serious mistakes) and, in the end, a saint - or on the road to being such. This buried story was, I thought, coming to the surface in HBP; and one of the reasons I'm so very upset with Rowling is that, both in DH as it stands and in her interviews, she's just buried it further. Indeed, she doesn't seem even to know it's there.

There are many reasons why J.R.R. Tolkien is s great writer and Rowling a hack, but one of them is his *awareness* both of what he was trying to convey and of what he actually did convey. It strikes me that Rowling, in contrast, was following some very powerful emotions in her writing, but she never really looked at anything she was doing, much less bothered to revise it. So the contradictions go on and on, and are never resolved. Tolkien, in contrast, deals with paradoxes and mysteries, which are not the same as contradictions.

End of rant! I've sent a draft of the "mores" paper to Travis and am waiting to hear from him. If he does not respond by Sunday night, I'll post it for comment on Snapedom, anyway.

I said "end of rant" - but, though there are many things that bother me about these books, her presenting an abuser as a hero, and a hero (in spite of his flaws) as an abuser, strikes me as actually dangerous. There are young girls reading these books, and some of them admire James and think his behavior normal!

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[info]marionros
2008-06-26 02:07 pm UTC (link)
THANK YOU! THANK YOU!THANK YOU!!!

*prostates self in abject grattitude and kisses feet with most unworthy lips*

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You're welcome
[info]terri_testing
2008-06-26 02:35 pm UTC (link)
I take it I met your specifications?

By the way, I'm still playing around with it; do you think it works better as is, or should I move the first scene down and make it strictly chronological? I set it up this way because I wanted the reader to view everything precedent through that understanding, but it might also work by sort of creeping up on the reader--as it does on Lily.

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Re: You're welcome
[info]marionros
2008-06-27 10:48 am UTC (link)
>>>I take it I met your specifications?<<<

Oh, you most certainly do. This Terri-fic is truly terrific :-)

As for your question; the fic is perfectly okay the way it is, but moving the first scene in chronological order might make it even creepier indeed. Worth a try?

As for the fic itself... I've almost got to much to rave about, so I'm spoilt for choice, really.. Where to begin..

It's the only thing that makes *sense*, really. And yes, I *do* see the warning signs. I've been rereading Gavin DeBecker's 'The Gift of Fear' again in response to this fic and it always amazes me how people will fall for creepy guys because culture has somehow convinced us that guys who will not take 'no' for an answer, will threaten violence, who are 'charming', who brag about their ability to flaunt authority are somehow 'cool' and desirable as mates instead of pushing all our 'warning' buttons.

It makes *sense* that James would be abusive. It's in the text! It is CANON that he and Sirius would sneak away under the Cloak to Hogmead to drink Rosmerta's. Fifteen, sixteen year old boys who sneak out of school to go drinking? Warning sign! It's CANON that the Marauders roam around the countryside, endangering people, every month. For *years*. Warning sign!

Look at James' friends, they tell yo so much about him. People will say, "oh, but the Marauders were such wonderful friends!" Really? There is Remus. You know, the guy they cared so much for that they learned how to be animagi, just so they could comfort him in his pain. Because they were so nice and good that they just didn't care about his lycanthropy. Weren't they nice? So nice, that when they leave school they dump the werewolf because.. they are afraid that The Werewolf was a DE?! Because you can't really trust werewolves after all? Canon would have us believe that this was a legible reason for James and Sirius to distrust their friend, but I say that if you distrust a friend for being a werewolf, then that whole song and dance about the Marauders turning animagi to help their werewolf friend is bogus. They became animagi because it was illegal and they wanted to and they joined Remus every month because it was against the rules and thus exciting.

Then look at Peter. We all thought that Peter must've been such a wonderful actor; acting as if he was a timid nice boy all the while plotting to defect to Voldemort, but when we look at CANON, we see that even as a boy Peter was very, very creepy. A syncophath of the worst order. 'Almost wetting himself', as Sirius sneeringly remarks, in his fervent bootlicking. Would any nice guy *want* to be friends with such a slimy, creepy guy? No, he wouldn't, but a nasty guy would want to have 'Wormy' (the name just hits it on the head, doesn't it) around to do some dirty jobs you don't want other people to know about. You'd want him if your ideas of a 'good time' and yours coincided. Think about it; Remus and Sirius weren't surprised that Peter betrayed James for an 'even bigger bully', they were just surprised that had the guts and the brains to do so. Peter is portrayed in CANON as a cringing, wheedling, slimy, smarmy creep, and this is *not* the 'face behind the mask' but the way he *has always been*. And he was one of the Marauders and James and Sirius trusted him above Remus to be Secret Keeper.

to be continued...

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Re: You're welcome
[info]marionros
2008-06-27 10:49 am UTC (link)
part deux:

James 'friendship' with Remus wasn't very deep if he dumped him so easily.
James' only real strong relationship was with Sirius (Red Hen did an excellent essay on this) with Sirius firmly being the follower and James being the Alpha dog. Sirius was the follower, the doer, the guy who acted and reacted impulsively. It was James who always got the ideas. It was James who got the idea from the start to bully Snape throughout school and who did so, JKR tells us, because of his jealousy about Snape's friendship with Lily.

Sirius was the ideal fallguy too. Think of how Sirius felt so guilty about suggesting Peter for a Secret Keeper that he was raving 'I did it, it was my fault' when the Aurors picked him up. Now think back to SWM and the Prince's Tale. CANON tells us that the SWM incident took place shortly *after* the Shrieking Shack Incident. We also see that Lily berates Snape when he tries to warn her against the Marauders and especially James. She says, "I know about your theories that Remus is a werewolf". (I'm quoting from memory here)
What? Snape *knew* that Lupin was a werewolf (or at least suspected it) and still he went into the Shrieking Shack during full moon? Why would he do something so stupid? What could Sirius possibly have said to lure him into such danger? How about "Evans was so curious about where Lupin goes every month, we've decided to show her, har har har." I can't imagine Snape willingly going into a suspected werewolf den just to 'get the Marauders into trouble' but I *can* imagine Snape doing so to rescue his friend from the jaws of one.

And suddenly it all falls into place. We've been staring ourselves blind on Snape in the Slytherin Common Room getting his ears filled with anti-muggleborn propaganda, but we've totally neglected Lily in the Gryffindor Common Room. James must've spent years poisoning Lily's thoughts about her Slytherin friend, twisting Snape's actions and words to discredit Snape and make himself look good. *That's* why SWM is his Worst Memory. It was *the* moment that Lily finally, totally 'went over' to the Other Side, and look what happened to her.
*That's* why Snape felt so guilty for her death; for years he had been warning his friend about no-good James Potter. *He* was not such an idiot to be fooled by that smooth talking bullying pureblood bastard. James played 'devide and conquer', playing Severus and Lily against eachother, bullying Sev and manipulating things so that it looked as if it was *Severus* fault (classic manipulator behaviour: shifting the blame of the abuse onto the victim). Hey, he got the *teachers* gobbling up his pretty stories about 'Snape giving as good as he got' after all. Lily turned out to be a harder nut to crack; it took him five years. Five years of bullying Snape, five years of manipulation, shifting blame, smooth talking, charm and badmouthing Slytherins in general and Snape in particular. It took a while - Lily *knew* Severus after all - but in the end he succeeded.
First he would wait until a new full moon. Then, just before the Marauders would go to the Shrieking Shack he would say something about Snape suspecting Lupins lycanthropy. He would then smoothly suggest to Sirius something like "Oh Snape would never dare to follow us, you know how all Slyths are cowards at heart. Wouldn't it be fun if he did, though? He'd shit seven colours! But he'd never... well, maybe if he thought that pretty redhead Evans were with us. Even slimy Snivellus might want to rescue a damsel in distress, ha ha ha!"
Sirius would be off in an instant (probably thinking it his own idea) to find Snape (Marauders map) and say something like, "looking for your girlfriend Snivelly? She's with us tonight. Arrhooooo!!"
Snape would leg it to the Shrieking Shack, just as Lupin transformed, and of course James would be waiting there to be 'just in time to save Snape'.

to be continued..

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Re: You're welcome
[info]marionros
2008-06-27 10:50 am UTC (link)
part trois:

James would spin his usual tale and just as usual be believed by DD (isn't it weird, you might ask, that Dumbles didn't even know the Marauders were animagi who let Lupin out of the shack to roam around the countryside for *years*? This tells you something about Dumbles, but it also tells you something about James' ability to lie and charm his way out of murder *just as a certain other Head Boy we could mention*!)
After this 'incident' James stages the very, *very* public Worst Memory incindent, carefully checking (canon!) that Lily is in the vicinity and at the end of that day Lily has permanently broken with her best friend and is shown as believing James' every lie. Oh, the also spewed her anger at *James*, but James is nothing but tenacious (another warning sign!)
For two years he keeps on bullying people (and especially Snape), he just hides it better. He keeps telling Lily that he 'cleaned up his act' and that she and her actions that day 'made him a better man' (again, shifting the responsibility of his own actions, "if you don't become my girlfriend/wife I might regress into my old behaviour and then it would be your fault" - warning sign!)


The rest is history.

So poor Snape, who at first congratulated himself for not being so stupid to fall for James' tricks, finds out that he has, instead, been playing to James' tune. James called every shot during the SWM incident. Snape had been so furious with Lily, listening *again* to that bastard instead of hexing his balls off and freeing him. Hadn't he warned her again and again that Potter was no good. Why did she listen to him? And how had Potter learned the Levicorpus? He had told only Lily of his new spell (Lily had, of course, shown the spell to James to prove that 'look, Sev *isn't* a Dark wizard. He makes these spells himself, you know, he doesn't learn them from the other Slytherins. He's very clever.. Look at this one..") So he lashed out in utter fury at her, calling her the one name he knows would hurt the most because he *wants* to hurt her that one time, for so betraying him (and he is immediatly sorry for doing so) and it played into James' hand.
Think of the guilt he must've felt. "If only I had.. she might not have married that bastard, she wouldn't be in this situation.." etc. etc.
I loved the bit about the photos. Now we know why Snape cried and tore that foto in Sirius' room. We also know why that letter sounded way to naive for a young, intelligent woman. We also know why Lily, for such a 'brave Gryffindor', ended up huddling pathetically, pleading for her child's life without so much as trying to accio her wand; abused women will cower, not fight.

In the end, it just comes down to two options. If James was really a nice guy, then Lily must've been a nasty golddigging bitch who dumped her poor halfblood friend so she can marry the rich jock/biggest bully on the playground. Then Snape must've been mentally disturbed for continuing to carry a torch for such a horrid girl.
Or James is really a nasty piece of work. A possible abusive husband, who only associates with people he can use and whose closest relationship is with best buddy, rebel-without-a-cause, Sirius. At least a manipulator who poisoned Lily with lies for years, who filled her head with stories about 'those Slytherins' until she believed them and discounted the stories of her friend Severus.

I suddenly find myself liking Lily again and can truly feel the tragedy of her and Sev's history.

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Re: You're welcome
[info]marionros
2008-06-27 11:18 am UTC (link)
Actually, come to think about it, you can see James honing his manipulative side on Sirius. Sirius is just as much James' victim as Lily is.
Think about it; when we first see James in Snape's memory of the Hogwarts train, it was *James* who badmouthed Slytherin and Sirius kept quiet (Sirius whole family was Slytherin, after all, and who would want to diss his family, certainly at that age?)The *way* he does it is impressive as well; he suggests that he would leave Hogwarts if he was Sorted in anything but Gryffindor, because 'Gryffindor is best' and then strikes a pose 'wouldn't it be great to wield the Great Sword of Gryffindor'. If he had said, 'Slytherin is the House of Dark Wizards and nasty creeps', Sirius would've walked away, if not punched him in the nose, because Sirius *knows* Slytherins. Is in fact related to more than half of them. But by giving Gryffindor a positive shine and then pulling Sirius in a fals 'we' against poor, ragged, halfblood Snape (who said something positive about Slytherin) he snared Sirius into chanting 'not Slytherin, not Slytherin' under the Hat as effectively as Dumbledore with Harry. When when we see Sirus again he hates everything Slytherin, he hates his family and even moves out and *moves in with James* when he is sixteen. Gosh, *somebody* must've done a good headjob on that boy. *Somebody* must've recognized Sirius biddable and controllable qualities...

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Re: You're welcome
[info]terri_testing
2008-06-27 03:36 pm UTC (link)
Wow, I'm flattered to have generated this level of response. I'll have to think about what you're saying, though. I'll probably post my reply on Snapedom.

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Re: You're welcome
[info]bohemianspirit
2008-06-27 10:07 pm UTC (link)
I would leave it as it is. The shock of the opening scene is very effective. Then we go back, to the first innocent days, in which Severus (not for the first or last time) does something that ends up backfiring on him and his intentions, and have the slow build, step by step, to how things got that way. I think the structure works very well; your thought of revising it to strict chronology reminds me of F. Scott Fitzgerald's concern about Tender is the Night, which begins in medias res and then goes back in the second section to some years earlier, gradually bringing us back to the opening scene's "present" moment and then going on from there. He eventually "revised" the novel to a strictly chronological order, and it's pretty well universally agreed that this "version" is much-diminished from the original, so every standard edition I know of is his original, "out of order" version.

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Re: You're welcome
[info]terri_testing
2008-06-28 01:41 am UTC (link)
Thanks! That was kind of my feeling, but I could see either way working--only differently. But I think I like opening with the shock.

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[info]marionros
2008-06-26 02:08 pm UTC (link)
Hemhem.. forgot to mention that on IJ I'm known as Smallpotato.. *coughs*

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[info]elethian
2008-06-26 09:41 pm UTC (link)
Me being a nitpick: "Room of Requirement", no S on the end. I don't think the following should be capitalized: potions lab (since it's not the school subject of Potions being referred to), invisibility cloak, dragon pox, wizarding world.

His charm must have been to keep his robes from obeying gravity; they looked like a statue’s robes, turned upside down like that. Lily giggled, and Sev’s grin widened. He crossed one leg casually over the other and pillowed his head in his hands.

LOL! Sev gets playful if you get him alone with the right person.

But the half-secretive, half-smug expression that he wore when he pulled something off was the same as ever.

That's our Severus. :)

I'm really chilled by this James who plays humiliating pranks on his own wife and dictates what she wears and where she keeps her wand (although I guess that explains why she didn't have it when Voldemort came calling). Yuck. What a nasty picture you've painted.

I still don't think something this extreme is that probable, though. My gut reaction to James is distasteful (and to Severus irrationally positive, by the same token) but I think he gets too short an end of the stick a lot in Snape fandom, the same as the reverse is true for fans of James who vilify Severus.

p.s. A post of this length is usually placed behind an lj-cut.

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[info]mary_j_59
2008-06-27 02:51 am UTC (link)
Just chiming in, Terri, to say that I do think James was not actually physically abusive to Lily in their marriage. But, Emestrella, he very clearly had those tendencies in canon, and I do think that, had they survived, he might have become abusive. I don't think James Potter was an especially good person, though he was not (I think) consciously malicious or cruel, and though he was on the "right side" in the war.

You see, one of many things that drives me wild about canon is Rowling trying to convince young girls that Severus was abusive (he wasn't, IMHO, but I do get a couple of faint warning chimes from him) while actually showing James abusing LILY and Sev and giving him a free pass. As I said to Terri, what's shocking about this story is how closely it fits with known canon (Lily's isolation, James' secretly hexing Severus during their seventh year while persuading Lily he had cleaned up his act; Lily not having her wand anywhere at hand that Halloween night; Lily begging helplessly when Voldemort was going to kill her baby (the little girl we met, and even the pre-James-relationship teenager, was not the sort of person who would *beg* anyone. She'd tell them. I may not like DH Lily much, but she did have some spunk as a child. As a young adult, she does seem to defer entirely to James.) That last strikes me almost as learned helplessness - something abuse victims often display; DH Severus seems to me to have it, too. But he always struck me as an abuse survivor. Now Lily does, too, and I'm having a hard time seeing her any other way. Weird!

Sorry for rambling so long. As I understand it, Terri's story is a thought experiment - does anything in canon flatly contradict James' being an abuser? The answer is no. Nothing does. But I certainly don't think Rowling intended to write him as such, and he's not all bad (though I, too, dislike him. It's Sirius I react more strongly against, however, since, before OOTP, James is a nonentity.)

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[info]elethian
2008-06-27 03:09 am UTC (link)
trying to convince young girls that Severus was abusive (he wasn't, IMHO, but I do get a couple of faint warning chimes from him)

I agree. He seems like the type who could be overprotective to a fault, thus seen as controlling. But if so, he would be doing it out of a genuine desire to see that person safe, I think, not because he thinks of them as a possession. (He certainly stays the hell out of Lily's life when she finally chucks him, as far as we can tell from canon. Someone who was actually abusive wouldn't do that.)

James' secretly hexing Severus during their seventh year while persuading Lily he had cleaned up his act

Yeah, that's a pretty ugly piece of work there. Way to be honest with your future wife, pal.

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[info]mary_j_59
2008-06-27 04:07 am UTC (link)
To your last comment - yes, exactly, and that is *CANON*! It is in this kind of thing, (and it was admitted to by the other marauders who were *apologizing for him to Harry) that could really make you see James as abusive. Honestly, the more deeply you look into these books, the more warped they start to seem.

But I do agree strongly that Snape would be overprotective - which can actually be hurtful. That's how I imagine him, and try to write him, as a father.

So I don't think you and I disagree too much at all. I can't see James abusing Lily quite as harshly as this in canon - but, my heavens, it's actually possible. There is nothing in canon that contradicts it.

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Thanks for comments
[info]terri_testing
2008-06-27 02:52 pm UTC (link)
First off, thanks for taking time for some proof-reading; I really need to take some time off from writing to find me a new beta, but PI seems to think that my old one is still doing it. I'll have to try explaining again. Thanks especially for telling me how to do the cut; I've been knowing I should learn that one.

Glad you enjoyed Severus!

I'm not sure I believe this version of James--but there really isn't anything in canon that contradicts it except Jo's statements that he matured and he's a Hero, which nothing she showed him doing indicates. Including that new prequel.

I'm delighted by all the discussion this is generating: thanks!

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[info]cardigrl
2008-06-27 06:49 pm UTC (link)
I still don't think something this extreme is that probable, though. My gut reaction to James is distasteful (and to Severus irrationally positive, by the same token) but I think he gets too short an end of the stick a lot in Snape fandom, the same as the reverse is true for fans of James who vilify Severus.

Sometimes it strikes me as nothing more than a clash of two incompatible personality types which just cannot abide each other. And some of my friends, who are otherwise perfectly reasonable people, just have this instinctive, visceral hatred of the Snape character. And I come pretty close to that with James. He just rings all kinds of warning bells for me. The thing I remain puzzled about is how many of the friends who seem to have a gut *hatred* for Severus Snape and *love* for James Potter are abuse survivors. It's such an odd dynamic.

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[info]elethian
2008-06-27 07:04 pm UTC (link)
Sometimes it strikes me as nothing more than a clash of two incompatible personality types which just cannot abide each other.

You mean James and Severus, or fans of each? Or both?

And some of my friends, who are otherwise perfectly reasonable people, just have this instinctive, visceral hatred of the Snape character.

I love how you say "otherwise reasonable people". XD I'm sure they'd have the same thing to say about you. Hee! (Not that I disagree -- I can't appreciate emotionally what it would be to be a person who doesn't love Severus.)

I don't *hate* James. Hate is such a strong word. I'd just stay well out of swath of destruction of he were a real person. Sirius is kind of a bugger to put up with too. I can handle him in small doses, but he's that sort of self-centered person who knows other extroverted types love him, and so makes himself the life of every party by staying constantly in the spotlight. And it kind of works for him, but he never realized how much he grates on some other people. The idea that he could do wrong rarely crosses his mind, and when it does do, usually it's too late because he's so rash.

Not a guy I'd want to be close friends with, I can tell you.

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[info]cardigrl
2008-06-27 07:17 pm UTC (link)
James and Severus, or fans of each? Or both?

Both. ;-)

Yes, I know they consider me completely unreasonable when it comes to the Potter fandom. ;-) And I don't *hate* the Marauders, either. As you say, it's such a strong word. A firmly established distaste more accurately describes it.

I'm not sure I entirely agree with all the highly critical things people (including me) say about the character of James (or Harry) Potter. Sometimes, though, it is interesting just to see where they take us. And Terri does a great job of that here.

Just as this story would have James fans howling in outrage, though, I also do not think I will ever understand how Rowling and her hard-core Marauder fans could describe what she has written the way she does. The blatant double standards just push me away. Perhaps it is nothing more than a stark example of how people bring their own temperment, values, and experiences to their reading.

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[info]elethian
2008-06-27 07:07 pm UTC (link)
Ugh, that other reply was full of typos. I'm using my husband's computer and I'm not adapted to his keyboard touch, heheh. Sorry, I can't edit it without logging him out entirely...

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[info]cardigrl
2008-06-27 06:35 pm UTC (link)
What an interesting story! I'm not entirely certain I buy James allowing Pettigrew to take pictures of the Levicorpus or ordering Lily to send them to Sirius. He strikes me as more possessive than that. But the way he isolated her from her friends, including their mutual friend Moony, is entirely canon-compliant and believable. Canon-compliant, that is, if one reads the books carefully and ignores Rowling's instructions on how we are to think about things. ;-) And your ending is chilling.

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Possessive James
[info]terri_testing
2008-06-28 01:50 am UTC (link)
A definite point about James being too possessive to do that, but two subcurrents:

If his top priority is to break her, the semi-public exposure and making HER send the picture to Sirius is a nice touch. And, after all, he is still letting her wear underwear. It's not like anyone is actually seeing more than they would in a bikini....

But two... it's a nod to all the Marauder (esp. James/Sirius) shippers out there--after all, sharing a woman, directly or vicariously, is one of the favorite ways for homophobic men to act on an attraction to each other.... You know, Arnold Schwartzenegger's idea of an orgy, 20 body builders flexing their muscles at each other with one whore in a corner to prove they're not really gay.

Glad you, er, liked, the ending. Um, maybe appreciate is the word I meant here, not like.

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[info]bohemianspirit
2008-06-27 10:29 pm UTC (link)
Wow. This is powerful. I am still trying to gather my thoughts into a coherent comment, but I will do my best.

While I don't believe James, in canon, literally took things that far, to the point of physical abuse and humiliation, I do think that your fictional depiction of him doing so brings out the abusive elements that are indeed reflected in his personality in what we see of him. The way you show him wearing down Lily's defenses and winning her over to him is, I think, very believable as the way it "really happened."

I suppose the only place it really breaks down is the matter of James' self-image. I think he himself believes in the myth of The Great James Potter, and I don't think he really deflated his head so much as changed the way in which he presented it. In short, he became more "mature" and sophisticated at the fine art of Public Relations. So he wouldn't do anything overtly abusive, but there would be a subtle undercurrent, always playful, never anything one could put a finger on as "wow, that's abusive!", in the way he related to Lily, or to anyone in his circle. First and foremost, he is indeed Alpha, in the way he relates to everyone, but I think he'd have to have a "misfit" like Severus at his disposal to justify to himself using overtly humiliating tactics like Levicorpus.

Anyway, the creepy element is there, in his psyche, and you yourself have said this is an exploration, not necessarily what you believe literally true. Yet it does illuminate the shadow that is hidden behind the "benevolent" persona of James.

Going back to the context of the story as written, I noted the irony of the title, especially vis-a-vis the ending. It suggests that for Lily her "heroic" self-sacrifice was perhaps seen by her as a "liberation." Brrrr.

Very, very well crafted.

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Two minds with but a single thought
[info]terri_testing
2008-06-28 02:21 am UTC (link)
I started writing the story as an atheist about James being an abuser; I could see some warning signs but didn't really think so.... Discovering how easy it was to channel C. (my friend's abuser) into James was rather a shock. Thinking about it, reading smallpotato's long post and all the thoughtful comments, I ended up exactly where you apparently are: that the only thing really preventing James from being an overt abuser was his self-image, his need to uphold the myth of The Great James Potter.

Like Harry in 6th year, he only hexes where he can do it to applause.

So he doesn't enjoy being cruel, he just has a robust sense of humor, and some people are just too thin-skinned. And, of course, some people "deserve" what they get, because they're Death Eaters, or slimy Slytherins, or exist.

The question would be how much this would protect Lily. Anything he does he has to pass off as a joke, or as justified by her behavior. He can't attack her for being a mudblood because that's what the bad guys do, but I do think he would get on her case for not behaving "properly" according to pureblood etiquette. A lot depends on what he saw his own mother's role as: and we know his parents were elderly when he was born and his mother doted on him. So I imagine he'd consider it perfectly acceptable to expect Lily to subordinate everything to him and to punish her--humorously--for any failure.

And if he lies to himself--and in this reading, he does, consistently--he CAN date (or sleep with) all her friends, telling himself as well as her it was just his attempt to be close to her when he didn't dare date her. And he can get her parents killed by asking the Aurors for protection when he guesses there might be a leak. He just doesn't admit to himself that's what he'd doing.

I think he could use Levicorpus, but probably not in public. (But close enough to the windows for that to be a threat.) After all, it doesn't hurt her. Where's your sense of humor?

What he can't do, probably, is directly lie to Moony, or use Levicorpus in front of Peter... anything he can't disguise (including to himself) as noble-minded, justified, or a joke she's overreacting to.

Thank you for commenting on the title; I was really happy when it came to me what the title had to be.

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Tolkien vs JKR
[info]terri_testing
2008-06-28 04:58 am UTC (link)
Both of them built worlds that are sufficiently compelling that other people want to live there, or at least visit. I remember my agony when a friend threw LOTR at me when I was 15, and on the third day my grandparents took the books away (I was visiting them at the summer cottage on the beach) and insisted I go outside for the rest of the day--and not read.

(That was also the summer I discovered Jane Austen. Northanger Abbey was hidden in the attic, and my grandparents toiled up 3 flights of stairs to discover what had me laughing so hard they could hear me on the porch. When you talk about Severus's appreciation of Muggle culture, don't you think he liked Jane Austen? Surely, Petunia badgered her sister into basic cultural literacy--and Severus would never have stood to be considered uneducated by a Muggle like her! He spent part of his summer holidays playing catch-up to Petunia's reading list. Fortunately, he's a fast reader.)

Have you read Christopher Tolkien's publication of his father's notes and WIP? I read it some years back, and it was fascinating--watching how Tolkien let himself be led where he had to be. I think I mentioned before, if I remember correctly the first two volumes were PUBLISHED--or maybe Two Towers was at press--before JRR understood that Gollum was the one who destroyed the Ring. And yet that is inevitable--if one follows the moral truth of the tale. But one wouldn't necessarily know that at the start. As an author any more than as a reader.

I guess that's Jo's hubris--that she thinks that being the author means she knows how it's supposed to be, so she doesn't need to listen to herself.

She said, if I remember, that she doesn't reread her own work: that says it all right there.

I'm no Tolkien, but at least I listen to myself. And to what the characters whisper.

"Presenting an abuser as a hero, and a (flawed--as are we all) hero as an abuser"--you do have a way with words!

Yes, what she says is dangerous. If people are listening to what she says and not what she wrote.

And "mores" is almost ready for view, YEAH!

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Death Eater James
[info]snapesbeatrice
2008-07-16 07:08 pm UTC (link)
Wow, your James Potter would have been a fine catch for Voldemort. The only thing stopping him was his mistaken belief that he was a good guy. The evidence was very much to the contrary.

His cutting off Lily's jeans--totally believable. I knew a woman who made herself a beautiful new dress, and when she'd finished hemming it, she tried it on to show her husband. He took an electric drill and cut it to shreds--while she was still in it, no less. And he thought it was funny. It was a traumatic experience for her, and underscored what her mother-in-law said of marrying *her* husband--"My parents told me that marrying him was the biggest mistake of my life." Of course, back then, hardly anyone got divorced, no matter the circumstances.

Great story! I need to catch up on your "Headmaster Snape," and hope you'll continue it.

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Re: Death Eater James
[info]terri_testing
2008-07-16 07:30 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for your review--yes, Bohemianspirit said much the same about James, that only his own belief in the myth of the Great James Potter would restrain him. I had thought the thing with her jeans came from my own perverted imagination--it's chilling that you know someone that happened to in reality.

Oh, yes, I am working on Headmaster Snape; right now the Dumbledore's Army and Sword of Gryffindor chapters are in progress. I work on HS in between gripping plot bunnies.

Right now, the plot bunny gripping me is another very twisted one. It's AU to my story "Betrayals" (on sycophant.hex/occlumency, where my name is testingt: it's been Beta-reed, unlike my lj posts). In "Winter" Snape finds himself unable to resist saving Lily instead of her son, and Lily is, um, appropriately grateful. The key word here is appropriate.

Love your name, by the way!

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Re: Death Eater James
[info]snapesbeatrice
2008-07-18 09:55 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for your reply, and the compliment about the name Rossetti' "Beatrice" painting has great meaning to me. (Had a devil of a time finding a url with the right-sized pic for avatar.)

In addition, I think Severus could have used a Beatrice. That said, I now discover you've written an essay about Dante's Beatrice and Snape! So I'm off to read it. I haven't seen anything on the subject before.

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Re: Death Eater James
[info]terri_testing
2008-07-19 04:50 am UTC (link)
The other thing you need to read then is Rex Luscus's essay, "Snape's Supposed Great Love". About the significance of the silver doe patronus, and of being led we know not where and then having to create our own light .... Mine isn't an essay, exactly, more a Dante synopsis: hope you find it stimulating.

(One of the great experiences of my youth: listening to an Italian speaker read some of the poems in Vita Nuova in the original, while I followed on the other page in English translation....)

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Re: Death Eater James
[info]snapesbeatrice
2008-07-21 04:53 pm UTC (link)
Thanks, I will look for the Rex Luscus essay.

I forgot to mention that I did read your Snape/Dante synopsis over the weekend, and very much enjoyed it. Am also using your posted reading recommendations, and am enjoying Pasi's "Into the Fold."

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Re: Death Eater James
[info]terri_testing
2008-07-22 02:27 am UTC (link)
Well, I spent part of the weekend looking at Rossetti Dante/Beatrice paintings, so we're even. I particularly liked the one of Dante on the anniversary of B's death....

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