terri_testing ([info]terri_testing) wrote,
@ 2009-05-06 20:54:00
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Entry tags:harry potter, james potter, marauders, meta, sirius black

Two Views of James Potter
The first was written largely in response to smallpotato’s response to my fiction “Liberacorpus”, and examines canon parallels to the actual actions we see James take.

The second re-examines James after Snilysocanon took me to task for being unduly unsympathetic.

“James the Bully: Canon Parallels”



We are privileged actually to view James in action three times. Chronologically in James’s life, they are Severus’s meeting him on the Hogwarts Express, SWM, and his death at Riddle’s wand.

Every action we actually witness James Potter take has a parallel elsewhere in canon.

James says, “Who’d want to be in Slytherin?” Like Draco Malfoy says about Hufflepuff.

James is obsessed by Lily Evans, who rejects him. Like Severus, acto Jo a bully.

James attacks an individual while backed by a gang of three, the most sycophantic of whom is a rat-faced boy named Peter (Piers…) P. One of his cohorts holds the victim immobile while James presses the attack. Like Dudley Dursley.

James uses Levicorpus to hurt and humiliate someone. Like the Death Eaters do at the Quidditch World cup.

And James as a father, presented at his most sympathetic (from the unsympathizing perspective of Tom Riddle) … is shown indulging his son, and trying, unarmed and unsuccessfully, to protect his wife and son from someone armed with magic he can’t possibly combat. Like Vernon Dursley confronting Hagrid.

Everyone, EVERYONE, whose actions parallel James, is presented canonically as a bully.

One can even find parallels between James and Umbridge: using innocuous-seeming spells to torture (assigning lines / using Scourgify to waterboard).

Then there’s one more parallel. James is described to us as a dark-haired, charming boy, “exceptionally bright”, attractive to both his contemporaries and his teachers, regarded with distrust by his Transfiguration teacher but generally receiving such acclaim he makes Head Boy. After years of his gang’s terrorizing other students, and after successfully covering up at least one overt crime he’s involved in—releasing a Dark creature on unsuspecting potential victims. And the headmaster never suspects him.

Like Tom Riddle.

Maybe I’m misremembering. Maybe there’s some scene, somewhere, in JKR’s fiction that doesn’t compare James Potter to the worst of the worst. (Come to think of it, now we have the prequel: anyone come up with any parallels to that?)

One more piece of evidence about James: the dog that spends seven years adamantly refusing to bark in the night. I grew up in a small town of about 10,000 people (about the size of Britain’s Wizarding community per the fabulous Jodel). My father committed suicide when I was 11. For about a year after, no one mentioned him to me. But after that—my father had previously been well-respected and loved, and people told me so. My 7th grade civics teacher tried to talk me into becoming a lawyer, like my dad. The librarian talked about his involvement on the library board. A police officer told me how my dad spent his limited free time researching forthcoming legislation and letting the department know how it would affect their duties. And so forth.

Who ever talked to Harry about his parents? Even Remus wouldn’t, before Sirius. We know for sure that Minerva, Filius, Horace, Hagrid, and Poppy were on staff while Harry’s parents were at Hogwarts; it’s probable that others were as well. And none of them but Hagrid, not a one of them, ever found a good word to say to a hungry orphan boy about his parents? That beggars the imagination, unless it’s a case of “nil nisi”. (Note that Horace, in contrast, won’t shut up about Lily. Which makes one wonder a little why Minerva and Filius did.)

Hagrid managed to snag photos for Harry’s album, presumably from his parents’ old friends, but none of those friends ever once tried to contact the boy. It was the Weasleys who took him in and acted as surrogate parents. When Harry received attention, it was for being the ‘Boy-Who-Lived’—not for being James’s son (except for Sirius), not for being Lily’s son (except for Slughorn). Just how “popular” were Harry’s parents, anyway? Was it the same popularity as Dudley and his gang enjoyed, per Harry—that nobody cared to disagree with them openly, for fear of being hurt?

Minerva, not knowing Harry was listening, did talk about James to Filius, Hagrid, and Fudge. She did NOT confirm Lupin’s sycophantic statement that James and Sirius were “the best in the school in whatever they did” (OOTP) or “the cleverest students in the school” (PoA): she says that they were “exceptionally bright” (note: “bright,” not “the best,” even in her own field, Transfigurations, which was presumably the Animagis’ best subject and James’s wand’s strength, per Ollivander).

What James and Sirius WERE the best at, per Minerva McGonnagall, was at making trouble.

And Minerva was probably at school with Tom Riddle, which is quite a standard of comparison.

We know who did talk of James to Harry: Quirrelmort, Dumbledore, Hagrid, Sirius, Remus under Sirius’ influence, and Severus. As for Severus—for two years Snape DIDN’T throw the despised James in Harry’s face, whatever he might have felt. The first time Snape mentioned James to Harry was when Severus caught Harry returning from a forbidden, hazardous excursion (which the boy had indulged in only for his own entertainment), lying about it, and reveling in having frightened and assaulted a fellow student. Sound like the behavior of anyone Severus had known as a child?

Regarding the assessments of James: the only one who doesn’t have an obvious axe to grind is Hagrid, and we know that Hagrid’s greatest flaw is his absolutely uncritical admiration of “interesting creatures”. With which we can, apparently, class James Potter.

Hoo boy. Does JKR have ANY idea what she wrote? Talk about Bad Boy Syndrome!



The Children of Privilege: Reconsidering James and Sirius as Tragic… Whatevers.



Um, sorry, the word I should be inserting here is ‘Heroes, ’ and I can’t. But it can be argued, as in the Greek tragedies, that James and Sirius brought about their own destruction because of a single tragic flaw. Hubris is the classic flaw of Greek tragedy: that form of arrogance which consists of believing one is smarter or stronger than one’s fate, that one can get away with overstepping the bounds of mortals.

And overstepping is always what James and Sirius were ABOUT. But the thing is, they were the golden boys, the children of privilege: they were raised to think they could get away with overstepping. And for years they did. But eventually….

Did you ever see the short (extremely so) animated film, “Bambi Meets Godzilla”? I’ve seen it several times; once was in a seminar as the example of what happens when one’s fantasies meet reality. As the opening credits roll, we watch Bambi gamboling on a spring meadow, while sweet music tinkles in the background. Then Godzilla’s foot comes down, splat, and the closing credits roll.

One could say that that’s what happened to James and Sirius.

I had a very long exchange with a Sirius fangirl (Nyxfixx) last year which altered my understanding of Sirius. Not that she got me to like him, or to forgive his treatment of Severus. But she did get me to see that his mind worked fundamentally differently from mine in some ways, and that behavior I saw as inexcusable, in fact criminal, was not ill-meant from his point of view.

It was not meant at all.

I may need to extend that charity towards James.

My grudge against Sirius was two-fold. I could wrap my mind, barely, around the thought that sending Severus to Remus in the Shrieking Shack was not attempted premeditated murder. It was hard for me to grasp that idea, because it seems intuitively obvious to me (as it did to Severus himself) that the expected, normal, predictable result of sending a sixteen-year-old into an enclosed space with an unconfined werewolf is a dead (or mutilated and infected) sixteen-year-old. So one would not do it unless one wanted that result. But Sirius was thoughtless and careless; maybe he really was stupid enough to imagine that Snivellus would just get a scare.

But afterwards he must have realized that he’d endangered Snape’s life, and he should have been sorry. And he clearly wasn’t: “He deserved it,” Sirius told Harry.

Similarly, I could see a bunch of reckless teens thinking it was cool and exciting to roam the countryside with a werewolf. Unlike them, but like Hermione at fourteen, my first thought is ‘That’s incredibly dangerous! OMG, what if he got away and bit someone!’ But I could understand, and maybe forgive, a bunch of thoughtless boys NOT worrying about that.

Until the first time it almost happened.

But that they continued to let the werewolf out to play after “many” near misses indicated, to me, that they were near-psychopathic criminals. They repeatedly, callously, endangered the lives of every student at Hogwarts and every villager in Hogsmeade, for no reason but their own idle amusement. They committed the same crime for which Hagrid was expelled and Tommy should have been: loosing a lethal monster in an inhabited area.

What Nyxfixx kept saying and saying until it finally sank in was, ‘But nothing really happened! Why should Sirius be sorry or worry about something that didn’t happen?”

Now see, that’s fundamentally—I do mean, FUNDAMENTALLY—foreign to my mind. I usually think—a lot—about things before I do them. I do sometimes do or say things on impulse or without adequate forethought; and I did that more when I was sixteen than now. But then I think about it afterwards; I have to. Especially if it seemed a mistake or a near-disaster.

If I’d been stupid enough to let a werewolf out to romp in the streets of Hogsmeade or the grounds of Hogwarts, the first time it almost got away and killed a courting couple or old lady out gathering moonlit herbs, I’d have been sick with horror for days. As Lupin apparently was in retrospect. I would have felt, each time afterwards that I let out the wolf, that I was playing Russian roulette—at best, one round closer to an inevitable disaster. Keep playing long enough, and disaster WILL occur.

(Note: speaking as a math major, statistically, letting out the wolf is not strictly the same as Russian roulette, in that each near-miss does not make a fatality next time more likely. But I would have felt it did.
Which means that, for me, the only way I could have continued to let out the wolf is if I were a psychopath who put my entertainment above other people’s lives. You know, like Tommy.

You understand, there are times when I’ve put my selfish interests or my feelings above other people’s feelings, if never their lives. So I can understand doing that, putting my interests first. I can’t understand simply not thinking about probable consequences to others, even after having my nose rubbed in those consequences, because I can’t imagine not thinking. Eventually, at least, even if I flew off the handle at first. Sooner or later my mind catches up and starts calculating probable consequences, including ones I seem to have escaped this time, whew! Not thinking of consequences at all? In anyone whose intelligence bests Gregory Goyle’s? Does not compute.)

What Nyxfixx made me realize is that for Sirius, each near-miss had the OPPOSITE effect.

The fundamental thing that Nyxfixx made me realize about Sirius is that he was a child of privilege. He spent his childhood being sheltered from the consequences of mistakes he made. So he grew up believing that any mistake could be put right: he never really BELIEVED in consequences past mending.

And part of that is that Sirius grew up with magic—and intention does matter in magic, except when it doesn’t. What does Bella (possibly Sirius’s babysitter) tell us about the Unforgivable Curses? “You have to really mean them.” But Sirius thinks that applies to everything: if he doesn’t intend a consequence, he’s blind—almost literally—to the idea that it might happen anyhow. Even if it’s much more likely than what he did intend. Like sending another kid to meet a werewolf and sincerely expecting no worse to happen than that the other kid will be scared.

When Sirius said, “He deserved it,” in POA the eavesdropping Severus thought Sirius meant, “Snape deserved to be torn to pieces” for the high crime of trying to garner enough evidence of the Marauders’ crimes to turn them in to the headmaster and get them expelled—as Harry was trying with Draco in HBP. This interpretation is natural enough, I contend, since being torn to pieces is both the most probable result of going down a tunnel with a werewolf, and what would have happened in reality had James not intervened (per James, Severus, and Albus). So I don’t hold Severus wrong for thinking that way, and for being a tad annoyed that Sirius is reiterating his belief that Snape deserves to die horribly for interfering with Sirius’s criminal schemes.

But I think now that what Sirius really meant was, “Snape deserved a good scare”—and that Sirius STILL, years later, didn’t quite understand (or admit to himself) that he almost killed the other wizard.

Further, Sirius (and James) HATE Dark Magic. And they really seem sincere in thinking that so as long as they’re not using Dark Magic, anything goes. As I pointed out in another post, it’s actually worse from the point of the view of the victim to be tortured by a common household spell than by the Dark Arts: if one is to suffer torture flashbacks, which is worse: having the trigger being someone yelling “Crucio” or someone saying “Scourgify”? Which trigger is one more likely to encounter frequently in the WW?

But Sirius (and James) really seem to think that THEY’RE not using Dark Magic, they’re not INTENDING evil, therefore it’s impossible that evil results will occur.

And every time they got away with something—whether letting out the werewolf or torturing other students—for them, it just reinforced that they are golden, that they can control the consequences.

In his heart of hearts, Sirius truly believed that consequences are controllable: that if he doesn’t MEAN harm he hasn’t committed it.

And James is mostly the same. True, James had sense enough to rescue Severus from being killed (and Remus from probable execution, and Sirius from a life sentence in Azkaban). But James, too, is golden; he grew up indulged. As a teen, he got away with criminal behavior (torturing other students, becoming an illegal Animagus, letting out a werewolf in an inhabited area) with no serious consequences. And he successfully fooled the Headmaster, weathering the investigation into Sirius’s attempted manslaughter with Dumbledore getting not the least idea that the Marauders are Animagi who’ve been letting Remus out to play among the unsuspecting villagers and students.

So of course, three or four years later, James would be vulnerable to the suggestion (from Pettigrew?) that if he and Sirius could so easily fool Dumbledore, they could fool You-Know-Who, the wizard who dasn’t take Dumbledore on. Because that’s really what using Pettigrew as the Secret-Keeper relied on—rather than using Dumbledore, who couldn’t be taken or broken unless their whole side had irrevocably lost anyhow, they’d play a shell game with Voldemort. And they were so sure they could pull it off, they had no backup plans at all.

Which, from the point of view of someone who always broods over possible consequences and failures, is unthinkably remiss. From the viewpoint of a golden boy, who’s used to luck breaking for him, it’s natural.

*

Now, to backtrack to myself: I’m the child of an alcoholic and a suicide. Anyone who’s lived in the alcoholic brand of dysfunctional family learns that the drunk always claims the morning after that they didn’t mean anything bad they’d done the night before. And for years the child agrees, it doesn’t count (except it does) because they didn’t really mean any harm. It was the drink speaking and acting; it shouldn’t really count. What COUNTS is what they MEANT, their innocent intentions.

(Translation: being affected by their misbehavior, however egregious, is wrong of YOU. Get over it already; forget it! They have, after all. They didn’t mean to hurt you, so it’s wrong and perverse of you to insist that you were damaged by their words and actions.)

If one ever becomes healthy enough or hardened enough to resist that argument, “I meant no harm” becomes the ultimate red flag.

Which leaves me peculiarly ill-suited to like the Marauders. In tormenting other students, the Marauders didn’t mean any harm; they were just relieving boredom. In loosing the werewolf, they didn’t mean to endanger innocent people; they just wanted to get some kicks. In relying on their own cleverness to fool Voldemort, James and Sirius didn’t mean to make Harry an orphan; they just thought they could pull it off. After all, they’d pulled the wool over Dumbledore’s eyes for years, and he’s smarter than Voldemort.

Even years later, in dragging his feet in taking the Wolfsbane that night, Lupin didn’t mean to almost kill three kids, to allow Pettigrew to go free, and to condemn Sirius to remaining a fugitive; he just wanted to wind Snape up a little.

See, it’s a philosophical or personality difference. I, after watching (and enduring) the damage my alcoholic (but charming and attractive) mother inflicted, find it HARDER to forgive someone who “meant no harm”—but did it, repeatedly, anyhow, and used the pristine innocence of their intentions to insist they should be let off the hook to do harm AGAIN—than to forgive someone who DID mean harm, but who subsequently repented and tried their hardest to make amends.

Sirius and James versus Severus, in effect.




(47 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]oryx_leucoryx
2009-05-05 06:56 am UTC (link)
In his heart of hearts, Sirius truly believed that consequences are controllable: that if he doesn’t MEAN harm he hasn’t committed it.

Until the time came when consequences did catch up with him - when James and Lily died and he got sent to Azkaban. And he did say that he was responsible for Peter's betrayal because he was the one who proposed the switch. But this does not prompt him to rethink other instances where things turned out less than disastrous such as the whole werewolf caper, even all those months after being out of Azkaban.

I'll probably write more tomorrow.

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Bambi finally met Godzilla
[info]terri_testing
2009-05-05 03:00 pm UTC (link)
Exactly. Reality finally caught up with him. Splat!

But actually, the Godric's Hollow disaster was still intentionally caused--by Peter, if not by Sirius. So Sirius need not have questioned his previous life-lessons; the consequence was still intended by SOMEONE, which is different from registering the possibility of wholly unintended consequences....

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]totalreadr
2009-05-05 03:17 pm UTC (link)
I think it's more likely than not that she does know what she wrote. At the very least, no one could possibly write such an *exact* parallel as the one with Draco Malfoy (not just "Who'd want to be in [house]?" but continuing with "I think I'd leave, wouldn't you?") without being aware of it...could they?

Tom Riddle wasn't out to make trouble, not as a student. As a student, he was out to avoid trouble so that he could make something of himself. (But yeah, as an Antisocial Personality(tm) he probably wasn't quite able to restrain himself from making trouble at times...)

I like your analysis of James and Sirius' mindset. It's not just a philosophical difference, though, because well...since people DO harm others without meaning to, many societies (such as US and UK) have decided to protect people from such harm. (There's also the fact that someone who does mean to can always claim they didn't -- something the law takes into account, and something Severus certainly would...and something we should too -- since we never see things from James' or Sirius' POV, we actually can't know for sure that they really didn't mean it. Objectively speaking.)

So in the US and UK at least, legally, it doesn't matter whether you "meant it." What matters is if a "reasonable person" would have known the likely consequences of your actions. This means that Sirius' behavior does fit the definition of "criminal negligence" in the US and UK. US and UK society have decided that such people need to be stopped, for the safety of others.

It's not a "philosophical difference," it's the difference between a "reasonable person's" mindset and...the mindset that really is behind a lot of criminal behavior. Just remember that, for the safety of innocent citizens, that behavior does remain criminal. Even though "it really isn't meant at all."

(And alcoholics *don't* mean to cause harm. They're just not in control of themselves. That doesn't change the fact that they do cause harm, and they need to stop. Me, I had one parent who did not have alcohol as an excuse for his abusive behavior and one mostly neglectful parent. Neither of them knew how to cope with me, thus the abuse. It was still abuse. ...and that's why people who don't know what to do with their kids need help, as I wanted to write on the Petunia thread, but gave up trying to articulate it clearly...)

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Intentions....
[info]terri_testing
2009-05-07 02:23 am UTC (link)
Realistically, I think JKR wasn't in total control of her material--she gave us the "I think I'd leave" parallel in Book 7, but she had Dumbledore tell us in Book ONE that James was to Severus as Draco was to Harry, yet she doesn't actually seem to register that the corollary is that we should dislike James as a posturing rich-boy bully....

Tommy? Dumbledore says his little gang DID make trouble but (under Tom's guidance) wasn't caught. As the Marauders weren't caught in the most dangerous trouble they made (loosing a monster on unprotected civilians). Yes, he tried to make a good impression on the WW--but read my story (elsewehere on my lj or on sycophanthex.com/lumos) "How I Spent my Summer Holidays, by Tom Marvolo Riddle."

When I was in college (early 1980's), I recall, a British court ruled a man could not be convicted of rape if he sincerely believed the woman was consenting: if he argued convincingly that he really believed that her struggling, screaming and sobbing "no" were her ideas of foreplay, and that really she meant "yes" but was too modest to say so until he held the knife to her throat, no crime had been committed.

You'll notice this ruling sticks in both my craw and my memory; as a potential (and, indeed, past) victim, I could not concur.

Nyxfixx (the Sirius defender who sparked a lot of my thinking) made me realize the extent to which someone could do harm without intending or subsequently realizing it (it was the not-subsequently-realizing aspect that most boggled me). She compared Sirius and James loosing Remus to teens' drunk driving--which is criminal in the US, for reason--I have a friend who lost both parents to a drunk driver, who didn't mean to commit manslaughter.

You're entirely correct--we can know that Harry didn't mean to kill Dudley and Piers with that honking snake, since we saw the incident from Harry's perspective and were privy to his intentions. We have no such knowledge of any of the Marauders.

And their actions were, legally, criminal.

Re the Petunia thread: suppose a poor-white-trash girl made good and married a rising young black professional, and had a child who was soon diagnosed as bright but autistic. The couple is killed, and social worker compel the girl's poor-white-trash, semi-literate relatives to raise the son--with no information on how to deal with an autistic boy, with a boy who's visually and behaviorally unlike them, the relatives guaranteed to enforce standards of behavior to which the boy can't possibly conform, guaranteed to punish him for acting like a freak.... In that situation, should we blame the illiterate, ignorant, poor-white-trash relatives for acting out of their igorance, or the social workers who placed the boy knowing the likely result, and giving no support to either party?







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Re: Intentions....
[info]totalreadr
2009-05-08 03:23 am UTC (link)
I think we should blame the system that leaves the social workers so hopelessly overloaded that they are incapable of offering any support.

You do have to consider motive to an extent -- otherwise you'd end up blaming people for tripping and knocking someone else into the street where they got run over, or being the one who ran them over, etc. Genuine accidents do happen. But that's why we have the "reasonable person" standard: If a "reasonable person" couldn't have forseen the consequence, *then* it counts as a true "unintended consequence" and although we acknowledge that the plaintiff was harmed, we also acknowledge that there was no way the defendant could have prevented it. So a defendant normally can't argue that *he* believed whatever -- only that a reasonable person would have believed so. (In the case of the rape ruling, all I can say is gendered crime, sexist society.)

But um, a reasonable person could and *would* definitely have foreseen that if you put a teenager in a confined space and surprise him with a werewolf, he'll be either bitten or killed. Now in the case of Harry setting the snake free, Harry was ten -- much farther from adulthood than 16. Still, a boa constrictor big enough to "wrap around Uncle Vernon's car twice and crush it into a trash can" might feed on human children -- and Dudley and Piers were leaning against the glass when it disappeared, so a reasonable person could predict they'd fall in.

OTOH both this and ten-year-old Severus' "branch on Petunia's head" seem to be "accidental magic" -- it's not that they *decided* to do these things with or without considering the possible consequences, it's rather that these things "just happened" in response to their own strong emotions. Since they can't decide to do or not do these things, they can't be held liable for them (and it wouldn't do any good anyway). It's analagous to the insanity defense...

IOW, baby wizards are inherently dangerous: they can't stop themselves from doing things that could really harm others. So...dumping baby Harry on the Dursleys is rather like forcing them to take on an untrained one-year-old Rottweiler. It's not that he couldn't be trained, and they'd even have a good chance of never getting seriously hurt while training him...and many people could handle it just fine...but then again many people couldn't, and many would reasonably be frightened to try.

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Re: Intentions....
[info]terri_testing
2009-05-09 05:38 am UTC (link)
But in this case, we can't blame "the system". Placing Harry with the Dursleys was Dumbledore's absolutely solo decision, questioned by every witch or wizard who ever actually saw Petunia and Vernon. And Albus set a spy on the Dursleys (Arabella Figg is a member of the Order, and has been reporting to Albus on EVERY detail a neighbor could glean of the Dursleys' response to their involuntary charge) as soon as he sent Harry there.

So if there's blame for how Harry had been treated, let's assign it where
it's due.

Considering motive... yes, as someone matures we expect more thought of them--that's the whole reason why (in America) crimes by a juvenile are considerered separately. And why the line of demarcation is fuzzy-- some fifteen-year-olds commit crimes out of adult motivations, some sixteen-year-olds still show the lapses of a child in their understanding of what they did and its consequences.

What a "reasonable person" (find one, please!) would reasonably have foreseen...

Yes, whether they are able to be legally accountable or not, baby Witches and Wizards are DANGEROUS. And forcing someone who's not able to circumvent the magic to take on that guardianship is inviting them to invent other ways of circumventing the wizard.



(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Intentions....
[info]terri_testing
2009-05-13 12:51 am UTC (link)
I really like how you respond to ALL the different levels. Thanks for that--so few do, in fact.

As to the "reasonable person" defense...
as to rape, yes, sexist society is my most articulate response. See the post I just put up on Belletrix....


as to the "teen enclosed with a werewolf" and the "snake let loose upon muggles"

I'm actually with you on both. A ten-year-old wizard couldn't reasonably(unless previously prepared, which this ten-year-old was NOT) have expected the consequences of his actions; a ten-year-old werewolf might have. In this circumstance? Disaster.

"IOW, baby wizards are inherently dangerous: they can't stop themselves from doing things that could really harm others. So...dumping baby Harry on the Dursleys is rather like forcing them to take on an untrained one-year-old Rottweiler. It's not that he couldn't be trained, and they'd even have a good chance of never getting seriously hurt while training him...and many people could handle it just fine...but then again many people couldn't, and many would reasonably be frightened to try."

What a nice summation, determinedly fair to both side. Thanks!











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James = Draco?
[info]totalreadr
2009-05-08 05:44 am UTC (link)
"James = Draco, therefore James = rich bully the readers should dislike" is such an obvious corollary, how could she *not* register it? Maybe she's just laughing up her sleeve at those fans who don't. This *is* the woman who wrote that creepily hilarious scene where Polyjuice!Barty tells everyone his exact plan but nobody believes him because it's "paranoid old Moody"...

...I enjoyed the scene at the beginning of HBP where Draco finally gets to hurt Harry on the train. After everything Harry and co. have done to Draco on the train, including hexing him to the point that he looks more like a slug than a human being and then *just leaving him there*...just breaking Harry's nose and then leaving him there is a rather mild revenge. Not that Draco is a wonderful person but when it came to Harry he had a right to a bit of revenge by that point...so maybe that's what we're supposed to think of James.

I don't, though, because James spent years taking actions whose open goal was to ruin Lily's friendship with Severus. And indeed, eventually the friendship *was* ruined with the proximate cause being one of those actions. (So here I'm blaming James for both his intent and the result of his actions.) The ultimate cause OTOH was partly Dumbledore's earlier response to one of Sirius's actions and partly James' subsequent exploitation of Dumbledore's decision. We don't know whether James authorized Sirius' action. We also don't know whether it occurred to him that:

1. Dumbledore let Remus in *secretly* because he wanted a werewolf beholden to him to use as a spy (if he'd cared about werewolf rights he'd have let him in *openly* to be an example);
2. Dumbledore also valued James and sirius as future Order members;
therefore
3. If Dumbledore were forced to choose between Remus-James-and-Sirius and -- well, pretty much any other student -- he would choose the Marauders;
4. Especially if it was a matter of justice for Other Student vs. mercy for the Marauders -- just giving someone the justice it's your duty to provide does not especially earn you their loyalty, but giving them mercy they don't deserve would.

If the above *did* occur to James, then he and Sirius basically manipulated Dumbledore into choosing their comfort over Severus' thus sending Severus the message that Severus could never, never join the Order -- if he did he'd have no protection from the Marauders.

They manipulated Dumbledore into keeping young Severus out of the Order -- just so that Lily would not have the option to choose him. If they were actually committed to the Order's cause, would they deliberately bar a powerful wizard from joining? Just for James' personal desires? (Plus it's an awful thing to do to the girl you claim to love. A decent person would win her love by improving himself, not by eliminating his rivals. A healthy person does not *want* to win just by default. And this was no ordinary rival either -- it was her best friend. James fans often argue Severus should have accepted James because "Lily loved him" (even though Severus had clear reasons to think James was manipulating her). Likewise, if James really loved Lily, out of respect for her he shouldn't ever have hurt her best friend.)

But maybe the above *didn't* occur to the charming boy who was good at manipulating others. Maybe what happened was just luck (which James then took advantage of, misrepresenting the Prank to Lily knowing that Severus couldn't contradict him). James *was* also lucky after all.

We don't know if James deliberately set up the whole situation (though I'm sure Severus thought he had) or if he only exploited it after it happened. Does it matter? Is the former worse?

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Re: James = Draco?
[info]terri_testing
2009-05-29 05:18 am UTC (link)
I like your analysis, but I don't entirely agree.

Your analysis of James's actions and its effects, yes. (Have you read my pleasant little fiction "Liberacorpus"?)

Regarding Dumbledore and Remus: your first point holds, absolutely. Dumbledore wanted, expected, another Hagrid (and was peeved as hell that Remus ended up putting his Marauder friends ahead of his generous Headmaster)

What you leave out is the blackmail potential: what would have happened to Dumbles had it come out that Dumbles' arrogance and carelessness had exposed EVERY STUDENT AT HOGWARTS AND EVERY RESIDENT OF HOGSMEADE to a werewolf? Specially imported by the headmaster, and insufficiently secured?

Oops.

This is what's in the background on Dumble's side, whatever he says.

As to what James intended--we'll be generous, shall we? I do think that James and Sirius were capable of any amount of Doublethink: the Slytherins indulge in Dark Arts, and that is EVIL, while what we do is to torture them with perversions of Light Spells. No comparison at all!

Isn't it nice to know that your side is intrinsically incapable of Evil, whatever acts you perform? I so wish I had that assurance, that Barty Crouch (both Senior and Junior) revelled in ....


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[info]totalreadr
2009-05-05 04:37 pm UTC (link)
You know, this reminds me of...true story:

Three snowmobilers had engine trouble and got stranded in the mountains overnight. A group of 20 more went out to rescue them. After the stranded snowmobilers were located, eight of the rescuers took them to safety, while the rest stayed behind to try to fix the broken snowmobile. When this group of twelve headed back, eight of them raced ahead of the others, then stopped to wait.

They had stopped at the foot of a hill known for its great hammer-heading. Hammer-heading is when you drive your snowmobile as far up the hill as you can. People compete over how far they can make it before turning back to avoid falling. It's a game of chicken.

From the official report: "They had all been specifically told that there was a high avalanche danger and that...'hammer-heading' was out of the question that day."

But two of them went up anyway. One got bogged down in the deep snow; the other triggered an avalanche.

Two (the one bogged down, and one of his companions below) were caught in the avalanche. The group all had transceivers, so the two were located immediately. But one was buried under 6 feet of snow and the other under 9 feet. It took 25 minutes to dig up one and 40 to dig up the other. They both suffocated.

(Avalanche Accidents in Canada, Volume 4: 1984-1996, p. 126. Link is to a PDF, page #126 is p. 135 in the file.)

Why did they do it?

Because they'd hammer-headed plenty of times before, and nothing happened.

But then that wasn't on a day with high avalanche danger.

...

So yeah. James and Sirius had learned their actions had no permanent consequences, so they were unprepared for a reality in which they did.

You know, JKR did say the Dursleys' spoiling Dudley was really harming him ("just as abused as Harry. Though, in possibly a less obvious way")...

At the very least her subconscious knows what she's doing.

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Darwin awards
[info]terri_testing
2009-05-07 02:26 am UTC (link)
You're familiar with them? Given to those who improve the species by preventing themselves from reproducing?

As you say, at the least her subconscious knows.

Thanks for your comments!

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Comparisons of the prequel
[info]oryx_leucoryx
2009-05-05 07:55 pm UTC (link)
If, like me, you interpret the people on brooms chasing James and Sirius as Ministry officials (there is no mention of black robes or masks) then the next thing that happened was that the policeman got Obliviated (I wonder how we are getting his perspective). The obvious parallel is the Muggle baiting for fun at the Quidditch World Cup. Or you can read the scene as people being disrespectful to a person whose authority they do not recognize - the parallels are the twins throwing snowballs at Quirrell and the twins shoving Montague into the Vanishing Cabinet because they did not recognize the authority of the Inquisatorial Squad. (The twins caused brain damage directly, in James and Sirius' case the damage would be caused by the Memory Charm.) Of course, if like the apparently popular view the pursuers on broomsticks were DEs then James and Sirius may have set up an unsuspecting Muggle to be killed (or just further tormented), which is worse than the above.

Whether the comparisons were intended by Rowling - she certainly intended the comparison to Draco, as well as the comparison of the use of Levicorpus by James vs the DEs (Hermione is the one to notice the similarity in spells, and in HBP Harry is troubled when he remembers how James had used Levicorpus). I doubt the comparison with Umbridge is intentional. Regarding Vernon - at least Vernon was wielding a gun (though Hagrid immediately rendered it useless). I can't say if Rowling intended that comparison either.

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Re: Comparisons of the prequel
[info]terri_testing
2009-05-07 02:28 am UTC (link)
I read the prequel only once, so I can't really comment (except to say that it reinforced my existing image of James and Sirius, which was not high). So I can't say who the pursuers were--if anyone else wants to chip and argue, feel free!

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What people say about James: (part 1)
[info]oryx_leucoryx
2009-05-05 07:58 pm UTC (link)
Even Remus wouldn’t, before Sirius. We know for sure that Minerva, Filius, Horace, Hagrid, and Pomona were on staff while Harry’s parents were at Hogwarts; it’s probable that Hooch and Pince were.

Are you confusing Pomona with Poppy?

The only time Minerva talks to Harry about his father is when she makes Harry Seeker, she says James would have been proud of him because he too was an excellent Quidditch player. (And Lily's letter indeed suggests this would have been true.) She does not compare Harry to James even when she gives him and his friends 50 points each for the Ministry battle - though Severus' presence may have been the reason for silence at this instance.

The 'trouble makers' comment can be taken as criticism, but also as fond reminiscing. Especially when Hagrid compares them to the twins, and though both you and I cringe at any fondness for the twins, my impression is that both Hagrid and Dumbledore thought their antics (at this stage, in any case, 2 years before their brain damaging Montague) were funny.

BTW Minerva's age comes from the same interview where Rowling said Dumbledore was 150, and we know the latter number got adjusted downwards. To have her close to Gran Augusta's age, but old enough to teach in 1956 I tentatively place her birth in the early 1930s. She may have overlapped with Tom's later years, but I wonder if she knew he was responsible for any mayhem - he was good at framing people.

Dumbledore praises James twice for his conduct regarding the werewolf caper - in PS he says James had saved Severus' life and the latter became indebted to him, in POA he says James like Harry would have saved Peter because he wouldn't have wanted his friends to become murderers. Of course what Dumbledore is saying is that James would have saved an enemy not because he deserved it but because of how said enemy's death would have impacted James' friends. And in James' case the enemy was a fellow school-boy whose worst acts against James and his friends were spying on them and engaging in mutual hexing (let's not even get into who had the initiative there). In those two instances Dumbledore also seems amused with James and Sirius' naughty side - using the cloak to sneak into the kitchens (that's before he knew of the werewolf-related uses) and their ability to become Animagi without his knowledge.

After Harry's return from the graveyard Dumbledore compares his bravery to that of those who had fought Voldemort at his peak in general, not specifically his parents (as opposed to what Hagrid says). In OOTP Dumbledore only mentions Harry's parents in the context of how they fit the criteria of the prophecy "both sets of parents having narrowly escaped Voldemort three times." In HBP Dumbledore compares Harry to his parents and Sirius in his will to fight to the death (the broom closet conversation). IOW Dumbledore acknowledges their bravery, though doesn't consider it different than that of other fighters.

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Re: What people say about James: (part 1)
[info]terri_testing
2009-05-07 02:45 am UTC (link)
OUch-yes, of course I meant Poppy (leading Remus to the Shack) not Pomona--whose wherabouts in the Marauder era we're not given--thanks for the catch.

I took the trouble-maker comment as criticism; it's bracketed by people making light of James/Sirius's behavior--"Quite the double act!" from Rosmerta and, "chuckled Hagrid, 'Fred and George Weasley could give 'em a run fer their money.'"

But what Minerva said was, "Ringleaders of their little gang. Both very bright, of course--exceptionally bright, in fact--but I don't think we're ever had such a pair of troublemakers--"

Since Minerva also confessed in the same conversation to being "sharp" with people who aren't so talented and bright (such as Peter P), how I hear this statement is that to her, their "brightness" is offset, not augmented (as it is with Hagrid, who likes interesting creatures) by their torublemaking propensities. So it doesn't sound fond on Minerva's part, though it does on Rosmerta's and Hagrid's. Neither of whom dealt with the Marauders as a staff member responsible for both the education and well-being of other students, including the Marauders' victims.

INHO, anyone who'd become infatuated with Gellert Grindelwald has a pretty severe case of Bad Boy Syndrome, and there's no signs Dumbledore ever got over it. So the Marauders' naughtly side was more likely to titillate than alarm Albus.

Thanks for analysis of D's comments on James.

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What people say about James: (part 2)
[info]oryx_leucoryx
2009-05-05 08:00 pm UTC (link)
Good point about when Severus first brings James up to Harry. Also note that in GOF when he suspects Harry to have deliberately entered the Triwizard Tournament against the rules or when he suspects Harry of stealing ingredients for Polyjuice he makes no mention of James. The next time Severus brings James up in Harry's presence is when Sirius argues against him teaching Harry Occlumency and the next after that is when Severus finds Harry witnessing his humiliation by James in the Pensieve. In HBP Severus confronts Harry with his father's misdeeds in the form of the detention files after Harry's unthinking use of Sectumsempra and lastly during Severus' escape from Hogwarts when Harry attempts to use Levicorpus against him. (James also appears twice and gets mentioned several times in The Prince's Tale, but the focus is on Severus' relationship with Lily.) In all but one of these times the mention of James is provoked by Harry behaving like the worst of James.

While people on both sides say that James was brave the only ones who describe him as nice, likable or good are Hagrid, Sirius and Remus. Even within the circle of Order members nobody else praises James or Lily to Harry. Take for example Dedalus Diggle - he went out of his way to look for Harry in Surrey, yet neither when he met him at The Leaky Cauldron nor when he came to Order meetings at 12GP did he talk to Harry about his parents. Or Order member Sturgis Podmore who was some 3 years older than Harry's parents and must have known them from school (and later the Order) - and I doubt he was the only non-Marauder from around that age group. Now perhaps Rowling thinks the views of the three are enough to characterize James as a great guy, at least to his friends (I have seen some of his fans praise his treatment of Peter, for Merlin's sake, so at least some readers agree with her), but then Rowling is the one who thinks of all Hogwarts' teachers Remus is the only one she'd want teaching her children. Since I disagree with her about Remus I also tend to give less weight to Remus' view of James than she does.

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Re: What people say about James: (part 2)
[info]terri_testing
2009-05-07 02:56 am UTC (link)
Thanks for canon references!

"In all but one of these times the mention of James is provoked by Harry behaving like the worst of James."

The confrontation with Sirius being the exception?

Thanks for the reinforcement of Order members Diggle and Podmore, who must have known the Potters senior and yet could find nothing good to say about them to young Harry....

Did JKR actually say she'd like Remus to teach her children? A coward who'd throw children to a sociopath to keep his own cover as a nice guy?



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Re: What people say about James: (part 2)
[info]oryx_leucoryx
2009-05-07 05:57 am UTC (link)
The confrontation with Sirius being the exception?

Indeed.

Did JKR actually say she'd like Remus to teach her children? A coward who'd throw children to a sociopath to keep his own cover as a nice guy?
I recall seeing that quoted, I'll have to dig around for it. In any case, when people are impressed with Remus as a teacher they think of how he encourages Neville in the Boggart lesson and how he supports Harry when he teaches him to deal with dementors - as opposed to Severus' hostile approach in the Occlumency lessons. Both types of lessons have Harry experience horrible memories and both are emotionally draining to him. Remus gets to him, Severus doesn't.

Of course Harry is more motivated to succeed in dealing with dementors because success there will allow him to play Quidditch successfully and maintain face in front of draco and the rest of the school, whereas he has little motivation to succeed at Occlumency because he thinks his connection to Voldemort enables him access to information everyone is denying him. Also he already enters the dementors lessons trusting remus and enters the Occlumency lessons distrusting Severus. Thus I don't think the difference in attitudes of respective teachers is the one crucial factor behind the difference in Harry's performance.

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Re: What people say about James: (part 2)
[info]oryx_leucoryx
2009-05-07 07:32 am UTC (link)
Did JKR actually say she'd like Remus to teach her children? A coward who'd throw children to a sociopath to keep his own cover as a nice guy?


OK, found it:
Online chat transcript, Scholastic.com, 3 February 2000
If you had to choose one teacher from your books to teach your child, who would it be and why?

A. It would be Professor Lupin, because he is kind, clever, and gives very interesting lessons.


There is also the following:
Fry, Stephen, interviewer: J.K. Rowling at the Royal Albert Hall, 26 June 2003.
I was also playing with that when I created Professor Lupin having a contagious disease so people are frightened of him. I really liked him as a character but he also has his failing though he’s a nice man and a wonderful teacher – in fact he’s the one time I’ve written a teacher… the kind of teacher I’d have loved to have had. McGonagall is a good teacher but scary at times. Lupin’s failing is he likes to be liked. That’s where he slips up – he’s been disliked so often he’s always pleased to have friends so cuts them an awful lot of slack.

It's the teaching style that she likes, both for herself and for her children. McGonagall is scary at times. Hmm. And a transformed Remus? Or supposed mass murderer Sirius that is given access to the school by Remus?

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JKR choosing Lupin as best teacher
[info]terri_testing
2009-05-14 04:56 am UTC (link)
Um. So Jo really would have sorted Gryffindor. Style over substance, anyone?


Choosing someone who'd throw students to a mass-murderer, as long as the tosser speaks kindly towards his victims?

Well, at least the kids would die happy. Torn into bits, but contented, that they'd gotten a kind word from their DADA prof. That counts, right?

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Re: JKR choosing Lupin as best teacher
[info]oryx_leucoryx
2009-05-14 06:41 am UTC (link)
To be fair, of the many teachers I had over the course of my childhood (and young adulthood, if we also include university profs), I know very little about their behavior outside the classroom. Who knows, maybe a teacher I admired for hir classroom conduct was really a most deplorable person elsewhere, and I had no way of knowing. It is possible to say that you'd feel more comfortable in a class taught by someone who spoke like Remus rather than someone who spoke like Severus while still thinking that overall there were substantial reasons why Remus himself was unsuitable as a teacher under the circumstances encountered in POA. (Though my impression is that Rowling like Harry sees Remus as the victim of unjustified prejudice rather than a person lacking the responsibility necessary of a teacher, especially in a boarding school.)

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Re: JKR choosing Lupin as best teacher
[info]marionros
2009-07-21 11:41 am UTC (link)
Hi. I'm just re-reading several of your essays and fics (and I really should comment more - sorry) and I just couldn't help it, I had to put in a few lines.

It's just a memory of my schooldays in the seventies. When I was thirteen, the first day of school we had a new French teacher. A woman, a bit frumpy looking and a bit nervous. She desperately wanted to be liked. It's been thirty years ago, but I still remember the utter *HELL* that the class became within ten minutes after she tried to roll call. I've actually became scared of my class mates, and years later, when I saw 'Lord of the Flies' I had deja vu. The whole class (with the exception of a few timid creatures like me) screamed and jeered and threw stuff at her. They acted as a pack of bloodthirsty animals smelling blood. She left that classroom in tears and we never saw her again.

She was timid and kind and desperately wanted to be liked, you see. That is a weakness, and children do not like weakness in an authority figure.

When I read about that comment of JKR about Lupin's biggest flaw being wanting to be liked and him being the best teacher of Hogwarts, I smiled. Stupid woman. As if real children wouldn't smell that flaw in an instant and attacked him for it. Authority figures who desperately want to be liked make very poor authority figures.

The same children, incidently, who screamed and jeered at that teacher French were putty in the hands of other teachers, all of whom were no-nonsense, absolute in their own confidence in their authority and all of them rather snarky and of a notion not to suffer fools gladly. More Snape-like, or McGonegalish, in fact. And you know what? The most Snape-like teacher of them all didn't only have cheerful lambs in their classes, but that teacher was also universally *loved* by his students.

Children, you see, at least in my generation, *liked* having snarky-but-brilliant teachers who creatively insulted their students when they did something truly stupid. For their scarce but always meant praise, children of my generation would slave. One nod of approval from a snarky teacher meant more than all the cheap praise of the 'kind' ones.

Somewhere in the eighties, adults started to worry about children's 'self-esteem' and decided that they needed to be coddled and praised to develop that self-esteem. I'm lucky that I was raised by parents and teachers who never worried about children having a lack of self-esteem (in fact the *less* children esteemed themselves and the more they esteemed *others* the better, according them, and I agree)

Just wanted to say, really, that if Remus Lupin had tried to teach my old class, and he had pulled that Snape-with-the-hat trick on us (trying to be liked by publicly humiliating a strict teacher he thinks is unpopular) then we might have laughed, but at the same time we would have noted that he was a dispicable creature and weak besides. An adult who tries to pander to a group of children by dissing another adult is a weakling, and we would've smelled his blood in the water. Pretty soon after that, we would steadily and increasingly have made his life Hell.

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[info]mary_j_59
2009-05-06 01:13 am UTC (link)
Oh, brilliant! You have such an incisive and analytical mind when looking at these questions. Because you're quite right: James is always compared to bullies throughout the books. In the Draco comparison, it's obviously intentional, but I'm not sure the Vernon Dursley comparison is. Nevertheless, it's there.

I also agree very strongly that not meaning to do harm cannot and should not give you a free pass when you actually do it. And a person who has done wrong, repented, and tried to do better is morally (and, I would say, emotionally and socially) quantum levels more mature and better than a person who blithely damages all sorts of people around him/her and simply does not notice it, or, worse yet, insists that it's not really harm because it's not intentional.

As I said before, someday someone will write a scholarly paper on the subtext of abuse in these books. That someone won't be me, but I'll be interested to read it when it gets written. (Hint, hint?)

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Thanks for comments
[info]terri_testing
2009-05-07 03:17 am UTC (link)
I suspect the only comparison that was intentional was the Draco one, and that Jo intended us to turn that on his ear. (Because, after all, in the end James married a Muggle-born, so he must have matured, right?)

I love the resonances. And I think most of them are unintended by Jo. (As I mentioned in my Tolkien/Rowling comparison on your lj, I think JRR was more in control than JKR of the material, largely because he let himself deviate from his original plot as his characters grew past his cookie-cutter shenanigans....) (Did you ever read Christopher Tolkien's publication of his father's notebooks? Some of the most important questions of plot hung in limbo until the need called them forth.)

Not meaning to do harm... It's such a conundrum, isn't it? If I mean you harm, my soul is harmed by that intention whatever I do, whether or not I succeed in harming you. What if I mean you no especial harm, yet hurt you past repair? What have I done to my soul?

Yet from your view, as my prospective victim--well, I grew up in a place where the only non-whites, the only visible minority, was Native Americans. And I'm part-Chippewa. Only my father had managed to raise me to be proud of that heritage, so when the most popular boy in class (aged 8) called me "Squaw!" I responded with an Hermione-esque lecture on how it was wrong to use an ethnic attribution as an insult, rather than by being hurt or insulted. (While other, non-racist, epithets, drove me to a spitting, sobbing, arm-flailing fury.) Does that mean that boy should be let off the hook for using a racist epithet to try to hurt me, merely because it didn't work? Or was he wrong to use it, despite that it was ineffective?

Do no harm. Mean no harm. Those imperatives aren't the same thing. Which gets moral precedence?

Really, it's the flaw at the heart of Kant's imperative: if I refuse to do to you anything that might harm me, I'm still blind to what might harm you.

What nice, meaty questions you raise, Mary! Thanks!








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Re: Thanks for comments
[info]mary_j_59
2009-05-08 03:17 am UTC (link)
I actually do think Rowling meant us to see, by the end of her saga, that James is to Draco as Harry is to Severus. At least, I hope she meant us to see that. But I also think she meant us to see that James is better than Draco, and Harry is better than Severus. There, I can't agree.

Accidental harm is such a difficult issue. We are imperfect, so we can't help but harm each other; we are (in my belief) the eyes and ears and hands and feet of God on this earth, so we are obliged to try to help each other. Rumer Godden articulates this beautifully in one of her novels, An Episode of Sparrows. As to that boy who tried to insult you, he clearly meant to do you harm, and that was wrong. But there is a difference, isn't there, between those who do harm without intending it in the "normal" way - I think we've all done this - and those who do harm without intending it, when any normal person could and should have seen that what they did was hurtful? I put James and Sirius in the second category. My reaction to them was like yours; the harm they did was so clear to me, and the possible consequences so catastrophic, that I couldn't believe they didn't understand what they were doing.

And there is, of course, another point here. If you do harm without intending to - for example, perhaps you caused a fender bender without meaning to - a decent and mature person tries to correct the harm and make things better. Don't you agree? Once you see that you have actually hurt somebody, you should try to rectify the harm. If you don't, you are culpable, IMHO. I find James and Sirius primarily guilty, in the end, for their failures of empathy. Interestingly, all the trio also fail to empathize with people they harm or endanger. And they are certainly meant to be heroes.

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[info]cardigrl
2009-05-06 04:54 am UTC (link)
What their fans defend as acceptable traits in golden boys translates in the real world as sociopaths. Some of them go decades with no consequences, leaving devastation behind them. I simply cannot find any sympathy for them, and it continues to concern me that fangirls think that because they are incapable of the basic human trait of empathy, that means they are good. But then, I see that kind of whiny excuses and self-justification almost every day....in criminal court, after interviewing the victims of their crimes. (not *your* excuses, but the fangirls, who honestly sometimes say almost word for word what defendants come up with. One of the more recent ones insisted that his rape victim actually "wanted it", despite being 5 years under age at the time). But if the fangirls really like that sort of guy, he's all theirs. ;-)

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James the sociopath
[info]terri_testing
2009-05-07 03:28 am UTC (link)
Day before yesterday I was out browsing ljs, including yours, cardigrl; your comments on James last month prompted me to post this, which I'd been ruminating on for months. So it is you, specifically, who got me off my a-- to post. Thanks!

One of my closer friends in real life is a nurse whose job is to take depositions from (alleged, I must put that part in) sexual assualt victims.... Not that her stories have affected my views in any way.

Golden boys... acceptable traits--your comment on my fiction "Liberacorpus" was to the effect of why was it a race to the bottom....

What I'm slowly, laboriously, trying to attain to, is seeing all parties as human and possessed of a real, if fallible, point of view.

Thanks for commenting, C!


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Re: James the sociopath
[info]cardigrl
2009-05-07 10:41 am UTC (link)
Hi there! The thing missing from my response was that Hogwarts and its teachers failed every single student (not just Snape) by failing to teach them any ethics at all.

Oh definitely, all parties are human. Well, with the exception of the non-humans, some of whom honestly act better than the humans, but kudos to JKR for showing a variety of attitudes there and not making them all the "noble savage". Wow, bet you thought I never say anything good about JKR. ;-)

And I probably should have taken a deep breath before responding to you, but I'd just come off of back to back court days with sentencings and the most gormless, self-indulgent excuses imaginable. Including from a James clone. And right now, we've got a probation officer whose reports seem to vary dramatically depending on the physical attractiveness and financial standing of the defendnats, which is incredibly annoying. So that probably colored my comment. ;-)

But what annoys me so much about the Harry Potter phenomenon in general is the lack of acceptable of responsibility, to use criminal law jargon. Unless somebody is able to see and admit that something is inappropriate, they haven't grown out of the faults that caused their behavior. Which would be fine, except it hurts other people, and the Marauder fangirls continue to insist that's ok. If they would just say the guys were jerks and then not try to excsue it by saying they died, I'd feel a lot better about it. ;-)

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James vs Vernon
[info]oryx_leucoryx
2009-05-06 06:21 pm UTC (link)
You know, if Rowling intended us to compare the two it is in how they differ: James goes to meet his enemy unarmed and is therefore saintly while Vernon tries to offer resistance and is therefore - er... what? Less than saintly, I suppose. James is supposed to be valiant while Vernon is made to look stupid. Well, all three Potters are supposed to be admired for their passivity in face of the prospect of certain death, as opposed to Severus who tried offering a feeble resistance - like Vernon. Not that I can see what is so great about the Potter way.

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Re: James vs Vernon
[info]terri_testing
2009-05-07 03:31 am UTC (link)
Refer back to 'Vengeance is Mine"!

Heroes never defend themselves. How often does Jo have to show it?

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Re: James vs Vernon
[info]oryx_leucoryx
2009-05-07 06:14 am UTC (link)
Personally I'm not into guns (not meant as criticism of gun owners) so I'm not up to par on the acceptable guidelines for using them in defence of one's family, but it seems to me that realistically the reason Vernon's gun did him no good was that he wasn't accustomed to having one around. He either got the rifle especially for the trip or dug it from some basement where it had been lying since before he married Petunia. Had he been better practiced and not scared of his own weapon he might have had a good chance to go through the procedure of warning the invador and getting at least one shot at Hagrid. But Vernon issued a warning and just stood there, then made another verbal threat, thus giving Hagrid the opportunity to neutralize the gun. (What would have followed had Vernon hit Hagrid would have depended on the nature of damage caused and so forth. No, I'm not looking forward for that kind of fic.)

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Re: James vs Vernon
[info]marionros
2009-05-11 12:02 am UTC (link)
There is also a the class thing, of course. The Dursleys are the sort of desperate upward mobile middleclass sort of people like Hyacinth Bucket ("Bou-quet"). It shows in their neat middleclass house, the way it is furniced, the posh school they are desperate to send Dudley to, and their terror of what the neighbours would say.
It's illegal to own (hand)guns in Britain. The only exception is hunting rifles, for which you need a permit. Vernon strikes me as the kind of middle-management, trying-to-impress-the-boss kind of fellow, who goes into golf and hunting, complete with all the paraphanelia, to belong to 'the country set' (but who rarely ever fires that gun - he just likes to be invited to hunting parties to feel he's 'with the in-crowd').

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Bullies and popularity
[info]oryx_leucoryx
2009-05-06 06:27 pm UTC (link)
I was following a series of links about bullying and found this:

From Boy-girl Bullying In Middle Grades More Common Than Previously Thought

Despite being perceived by their classmates as being “popular,” bullies also are nominated by their peers as being among those liked the least.

“Bullies are always aggressive, and they’re never likeable,” Rodkin said. “For a generation of research, being popular was equated with being liked. Popularity is an extremely important dimension of social life in any social structure, whether it’s kids or adults, but ultimately it’s a gauge of whether others think you have social influence, not if you’re likeable. Popularity doesn’t necessarily translate into what kind of person you want your child to become.”


Being popular and being liked do not always correlate. Pay attention, Marauders, Weasleys, Dursleys and their respective fans.

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Re: Bullies and popularity
[info]terri_testing
2009-05-07 03:33 am UTC (link)
Thanks so much for the link, Oryx!

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Re: Bullies and popularity
[info]terri_testing
2009-05-13 02:23 am UTC (link)
Oh, oh, oh, she moans. The whole time growing up, I thought there was something wrong with me, that the most popular students were never the ones I thought any good.

I thought that was something wrong with me! Now you tell me, finally, that the word we call "popularity" is a measure of overall social influence, and has nothing at all to do with whether someone is liked (or whether she might have chosen to place herself between another and harm).

You're just trying to make trouble.


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Why didn't the Marauders learn?
[info]oryx_leucoryx
2009-05-08 05:36 am UTC (link)
If I’d been stupid enough to let a werewolf out to romp in the streets of Hogsmeade or the grounds of Hogwarts, the first time it almost got away and killed a courting couple or old lady out gathering moonlit herbs, I’d have been sick with horror for days. As Lupin apparently was in retrospect. I would have felt, each time afterwards that I let out the wolf, that I was playing Russian roulette—at best, one round closer to an inevitable disaster. Keep playing long enough, and disaster WILL occur.

You know, this really depends on how one explains why the worst didn't happen. If you think that the worst could have happened and the only reason it didn't (or hadn't yet) is luck then perhaps you'd stop tempting fate. But what if you think that the reason the worst didn't happen was because of something you did? Perhaps James and Sirius were under the belief that while they occasionally did lose control of Moony momentarily, but they were fast to regain it - they were getting really good at avoiding disasters. And they were bound to become even better with more practice, so no need to worry at all. A bad case of hubris.

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Re: Why didn't the Marauders learn?
[info]terri_testing
2009-05-29 05:32 am UTC (link)
Yes, that's essentially what Nyxfixx taught me.

MY intrinisic reaction was that I'd escaped loosing the werewolf ONCE, "by the grace of God", as it were.

Sirius (and James) were sure that they'd escaped because they were STRONG and CLEVER enough. And every time it happened, it reinforced that they were STRONG, and CLEVER, and surely could pull it off one more time.

As you say, absolutely classic hubris.

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[info]oryx_leucoryx
2009-05-08 06:11 am UTC (link)
if one is to suffer torture flashbacks, which is worse: having the trigger being someone yelling “Crucio” or someone saying “Scourgify”? Which trigger is one more likely to encounter frequently in the WW?

Aha! So that's where all those fanon cauldron scrubbing detentions come from! Severus is terrified of magical cleaning! (IIRC in canon his detentions are mostly ingredient preparation, and once he has Ron do non-magical cleaning in the hospital wing.)
I wonder if he let Pettigrew use magic for cleaning at Spinner's End.

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Cleaning cauldrons without magic
[info]terri_testing
2009-05-29 05:34 am UTC (link)
Snerf, snarl.

As if.

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Another thought-
[info]mary_j_59
2009-05-09 03:01 am UTC (link)
The fundamental thing that Nyxfixx made me realize about Sirius is that he was a child of privilege. He spent his childhood being sheltered from the consequences of mistakes he made. So he grew up believing that any mistake could be put right: he never really BELIEVED in consequences past mending.

And it just occurred to me that this is one of the things I see as extremely corrupting about the Wizarding World as Rowling depicts it. Both James and Sirius are wealthy purebloods, and they are definitely Wizarding raised. In the Wizarding World, violence is normal, and usually reversible (I find that scene in the hospital at Christmas extremely disturbing, especially because it's apparently meant to be funny). Unforgivable curses are so because they cannot be reversed; Dark magic is Dark because it is permanent. And James "hates Dark stuff".

It's just as you said in your essay about Hermione: Wizards simply don't seem to have any ethical sense to speak of, because they don't have to deal with the consequences of their actions. In the Potterverse, almost all physical damage is easily reversed, and emotional damage isn't even noticed. So the apparent callousness of James and Sirius isn't all that remarkable. That's their privilege, you see - they are from ancient pureblood families. As a result, they think like wizards, and not like Muggles. Someone pointed out that Severus, in contrast, actually does think like a Muggle. Consequences matter to him.

Just a thought!

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Re: Another thought-
[info]terri_testing
2009-05-29 05:47 am UTC (link)
Which is why I had a half-blood chastise a Pureblood in my "Carrow's Assistant" chapter of Headmaster Snape.

And the criterion the Headmaster uses to establish whether a given hex might be used legally in the Dueling Club is not: how badly does it hurt your victim? but, Can you reverse it fully with no lingering ill-effects?


...



'A third year girl Michael didn’t know piped up, “That’s like something my mum says. She’s a Muggle doctor, see, and she says our magic sometimes seems to be a sort of cheating, and that then we have problems when reality catches up to us. She gets mad at my dad for thinking he can always fix everything with a wave of his wand. Some things can’t be fixed, she says, so you have to keep from making those mistakes in the first place. She thinks most of my dad’s side of the family terribly immature, truth to tell. She says most wizards haven’t seemed to learn that their actions can have permanent consequences. What you said just now, Michael: we get used to assuming we can undo whatever we do. Not a safe assumption.”

'Michael blinked at the girl. “I certainly couldn’t undo what I did, and I definitely made a mistake I shouldn’t have made in the first place.”

'The girl perched on the end of his sofa, saying chattily. “For instance, my mum is horrified by how little attention Hogwarts pays to safety, compared to Muggle schools. Like when I fell off my broom and broke seven bones, see, and Madam Pomfrey healed them right away. But Mum said, I shouldn’t have broken the bones in the first place. What if I’d broken my neck, could Madam Pomfrey have fixed that? She says our reliance on magic makes us careless and intellectually lazy.'







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[info]oryx_leucoryx
2009-05-09 07:24 am UTC (link)
Looking for information about how the general public views probable consequences I leafed through 'A Mathematician Reads the Newspaper' by John Allen Paulos. Of course now I can't find the anecdote, but somewhere he described a situation of a driver parking a car on an incline. The parked car rolls downhill. Should the driver be held responsible? It turns out that many people's reaction depends on what the car hits. If the car rolls downhill and hits a fire hydrant most people interpret the scenario as the action of a force beyond the driver's control, but if the car hits a person more people claim the driver should have known better. Maybe James and Sirius' attitude to responsibility isn't so uncommon?

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[info]puff222001
2009-05-18 01:30 am UTC (link)
I didn't really think of James or Sirius that way, but I've always had a hidden dislike for the Marauders--I mean, really, they're mean and nasty. That you put into words what I couldn't discern really put things into perspective. I also grew up with an alcoholic and Sirius' denials of wrong-doing ring far, far too real for me.

I'm a little afraid to read your other articles, though. I'm sad to see a series I like so much logically torn asunder.

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Torn asunder
[info]terri_testing
2009-05-29 05:51 am UTC (link)
In its way, what a tribute to the meta I have written.

Reading with the mind, reading with the heart--which is to be preferred?

And perhaps, as adults, we can acknowledge that something spoke to us that we might consciously disavow?

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Re: Torn asunder
[info]puff222001
2009-05-29 11:35 pm UTC (link)
Precisely. I love Harry Potter but there is so much in it I just can't accept. The "good" guys are darker than the appear at first glance and the "bad" guys aren't as evil. Nothing is black or white. The Twins, whom I love without thinking, are the kind of people who teased me mercilessly in school. Severus, a man I hate without any regards to the person intended, makes me want to hug him when I think of how he suffered. Everyone is so much more complex than a first or second reading shows. To dig deep, even when it breaks views you had, is the true sign of a literary mind.

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What about Lily?
[info]oryx_leucoryx
2009-05-18 08:29 am UTC (link)
Note that Horace, in contrast, won’t shut up about Lily. Which makes one wonder a little why Minerva and Filius did.

Indeed, why didn't any teacher but Slughorn talk about Lily? Even if she wasn't particularly talented in their respective subjects (let's forget about all the theorizing that was based on Rowling's hints about the significance of the Potters' careers, Ollivander's mention of her wand, attempts at explaining her pairing with Severus without knowing that they had been friends before their arrival at Hogwarts and looking for an explanation other than a promise to Severus for Voldemort to consider sparing her) I doubt she was only charming and vivacious in Slughorn's presence. Since she disapproved of James' wanton hexing of people because he could I don't think she was considered a trouble-maker. So why didn't any of the other teachers ever tell Harry anything nice about his mother? Was it because they expected the conversation to progress to James and wanted to avoid that? Was there anything about Lily that retroactively painted her negatively in their minds (for instance marrying trouble-maker James Potter)?

Neither do any non-Marauder Order members ever mention her to Harry, just like they don't mention James. As for Sirius and Remus, they mostly mention her as part of 'Lily and James', the only time they talk about her is when they are questioned about her attitude towards James and his behavior (after Harry sees SWM). Their nostalgia for James does not include Lily except as the girl James had been trying to impress.

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James as potential hate-group member?
[info]oryx_leucoryx
2009-05-19 07:07 am UTC (link)
We know why James did not become a Death Eater - the organization's official ideology went against James' upbringing regarding Muggle-born inclusion (though we do not know how far such inclusion went - we know he opposed using hateful names for Muggle-borns and he believed it was OK to marry a Muggle-born, but we do not have evidence one way or the other if he believed their marriage to be an egalitarian partnership nor do we know what he thought of Muggle-borns having economical or political influence, as neither of these situations arise - the acceptability of Potters by Blacks is suggestive of some limit). However judging by James' behavior and his justification for it I don't think that at 16 he had any less capacity for cruelty than say, Mulciber.

So what if there were an active hate group with an ideology that appealed to young James? Suppose there was a movement of Snake Eaters who sought to exclude Slytherins from wizarding society 'because they existed'? I have a feeling James would have been interested. Someone with 2 Slytherin parents who hirself was in Slytherin would be fair game. What about Sirius? Both parents from Slytherin, but he himself not. Suppose James only found out about Sirius' parents after Sirius' Sorting. What would James answer if Sirius had asked 'Does it make a difference, being Slytherin-born?' And would his attitude have changed over time? And if Dorea Black was indeed James' mother, how does his being half-Slytherin figure in? Before DH it was not an uncommon view that Severus may have killed his own father during his days as Death Eater (whether as an initiation rite or as a way to maintain credibility with them). Severus' pained question regarding the future of his soul casts serious doubt on such a possibility. How would James have dealt with his mother's House affiliation had his House bias developed further than we see in canon, cultivated by a formal hate movement? And how far would he have let his hatred take him? Would he have let his friends become Slytherin killers if they could have gotten away with it? Would he have gone that far himself?

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